Two sets of Willis comments, and a plausible story

In the last day or so I’ve seen or heard two sets of comments from the Minister of Finance on the Orr/Quigley/Reserve Bank/Treasury/Willis – and it is now about all of them – business.

The first, that I want to deal with only briefly, was in The Post this morning under the heading “Willis dismay with RBNZ” (online here).

The journalist was obviously a bit of an Orr fan, as this article is the second time in two days The Post has talked of Orr’s “reputation for being charming”. No doubt he could and did turn it on when he chose, but not, surely, ever to anyone who ever challenged or disagreed with him (that included – very evidently – Nicola Willis when on occasion as Opposition finance spokesperson she asked Orr a slightly uncomfortable question at FEC hearings).

Much of what is in the article was also covered in my post yesterday. So I wanted to mention only this snippet

I guess she’d have looked a bit silly to have objected, but it is good to see her explicitly welcoming that Treasury release. On the second bit of that extract, it refers to the meeting on 24 February involving Quigley, Orr, Hawkesby, and senior Treasury people as well as the Minister herself. It is good to know that Treasury is considering releasing the minute of the meeting given that my request for it was lodged with them more than a month ago (as part of a larger request on Funding Agreement issues) but I presume there have been other requests, including since Tuesday when I reported the claim by my source that Quigley had been apoplectic and had complained to Treasury when he’d learned that such a minute existed. Again, it is good to know the Minister thinks Treasury should comply with the law, and we will look forward to the release.

The Minister’s more substantive comments were in an interview yesterday afternoon with Heather du Plessis-Allan. The audio is here and my transcript is here

Transcript of Heather du Plessis interview with Nicola Willis on 24 July 2025

Why do I bother doing the transcript?  Partly for future reference and partly as a way of focusing my mind on all the lines Willis used in answering (and avoiding answering) questions.   There were things I hadn’t really noticed when I listened live. 

What do we learn from the interview?  First that “emotions were running high” (the no doubt carefully chosen phrase for something like Adrian Orr losing his cool again) in the 24 February meeting she attended (although apparently there was no swearing) and she’d “heard reports” of the 20 February meeting between the Bank and Treasury where again “emotions ran high”.    About, of all things, the Funding Agreement…..as if almost every single agency in Wellington hadn’t already been facing budget cuts (and it presumably wasn’t as if anyone was proposing cutting out the role of Governor). 

Recall that Quigley email to Treasury (reproduced in yesterday’s post).  The Governor was so ill-disciplined and out of control that in response to what Quigley recognised was a perfectly reasonable question from a mid-level Treasury official, Orr lost it, and then wouldn’t apologise, either immediately or after the meeting (instead Quigley was left to go and make his own apologies for Adrian).  And sufficiently out of control, and unresponsive to what must have been feedback from his own chair, that the “losing his cool”, “emotions running high” behaviour was on display again several days later to a meeting with the Minister himself.      In a normal employee such behaviour, especially repeated and without prompt and full apology, might of itself almost have been grounds for dismissal.  (Humans make mistakes, even public sector chief executives, sometimes provoked, sometimes not.  But when made aware you apologise, ensure it won’t happen again, or….you really aren’t fit to lead people and public organisations.)

Willis was again at pains to suggest that the employment of the Governor was nothing to do with her, but purely something for the Reserve Bank Board.   As a matter of law it simply isn’t so (I ran through the relevant provisions a couple of days ago), and the fact that it isn’t so has nothing to do –  contrary to the Minister’s claim –  with the “independence” of the Reserve Bank.  There are plenty of roles and powers for the Minister of Finance in the Reserve Bank Act (as well as appointing and dismissing and receiving resignations from the Governor).  For example, the Reserve Bank has what is known as “operational autonomy” on monetary policy, but they work to an inflation target by the Minister.   In banking supervision and crisis management, some powers are exercised wholly by the Bank while others need ministerial approval.  The Minister is directly party to the Funding Agreement. Parliament could have chosen to give the Minister no role re the Governor’s appointment etc but it never has (fortunately or there would be no political accountability at all).  The Minister is responsible for the Governor, while the Board –  whose chair is removable at will be the Minister – monitors etc the Governor, accountable to her. 

At the very end of the interview Willis is asked

So far, we’ve had two quite different stories from Quigley, neither of which appears to be the truth. First, back on 5 March we were assured it was just “a personal decision”, with denials of any policy or conduct or similar issues being involved. We were intended to believe the man was tired, the job was done, and it was time to do something else. Then on 11 June, the Bank’s carefully crafted statement told us a new story. In this story there had indeed been material differences between the Board and the Governor over what they could live with in the next Funding Agreement. This we were told

“caused distress to Mr Orr and the impasse risked damaging necessary working relationships, and led to Mr Orr’s personal decision [ that term again] that he had achieved all he could as Governor of the Reserve Bank and could not continue in that role with sufficiently less funding than he thought was viable for the organisation”.

This time we were clearly intended to believe that the “personal decision” [which in a narrow and formal sense it was] was really just about (strongly felt) policy and resourcing differences.

Had you read either or both of those accounts, you might have believed (and were clearly supposed to) that the very first the Minister of Finance would have known that anything so dramatic was afoot was when on 27 February Quigley advised Iain Rennie of something briefly (words were withheld), who in turn advised the Minister briefly (words were withheld), who responded (puzzlingly) with nothing much more than something like “thanks for the update”.

But look at what the Minister said yesterday afternoon

You don’t usually have “employment discussions” when someone comes to you and says their job is done and they are going to leave, and even when the CE comes out of a Board discussion on funding and concludes it might be better for everyone if he, the CE, moves on. There will have been standard resignation and notice provisions in the Governor’s contract. Easy enough to have HR put those in train.

“Employment discussions” between the Governor and the Board preceding his resignation strongly suggest that serious issues were raised by the Board with the Governor, serious enough to have potential implications for whether they would be happy for him to continue as Governor. Which would be consistent with my source’s story, from the post on Tuesday:

And you can well understand why it might trigger Orr’s resignation, since getting to such a point clearly indicated a serious loss of confidence in the Governor, and quite possibly an almost irreparable breakdown of trust.

The Minister continues to state that she does not know the contents of the exit agreement then negotiated between expensive senior lawyers for both the Board and Orr. Which, on her account of what went on, should be simply extraordinary, because (a) the resignation would have to come to her, and b) she is the only guardian of the public interest here, and the one who would, in principle, have to account to Parliament for any deals done. She and her office, or at very least Treasury, should have been all over any terms – especially around non-disclosure matters – Quigley was agreeing with her (outgoing) Governor. And yet we must presumably take her at her word that she was not, and the OIAed paper trail suggests no Treasury advice on such matters at all.

One of the things that has puzzled me in the last few weeks is the absence of advice from either Treasury or the Board chair (or Board generally) to the Minister on the looming resignation. Last month I had an OIA response from Treasury (briefly written up and linked to at the end of this post), with almost nothing there (not withheld, just nothing there).

And then on 30 June I had a response to an OIA to the Bank. The relevant bit of the request was this

and their response was

Which isn’t exactly what you’d have expected if the initial Quigley spin had been anything like the truth or if the 11 June statement had been anything like the full story.

But it would make a lot more sense if the Minister of Finance had been the one initiating/prompting the actions that led directly to Orr’s “personal decision” to resign.

There is no direct evidence of that at this point. But something along those lines might explain rather a lot.

Let’s go back to that meeting on 24 February between the Minister, the top Bank people, and (presumably) very senior Treasury people. If Adrian had again lost his cool (“emotions were running high”) what do we supposed happened afterwards? Every one just put it down to a bad day and moved on? It doesn’t seem very likely. After all, we know that a few days previously Quigley had taken the initiative to apologise for Orr’s conduct to a mid-level Treasury staffer. Was he likely to have done much less after his CE blew up in a meeting with the Minister herself? As for the Minister, surely she’d have debriefed with her political advisers – “can you believe that?” sort of thing (of course, they probably could because Orr’s behaviour and style has been well known, including to the Minister, for years), or “we have to do something about him/something has to be done about him”. Perhaps she had a chat with Iain Rennie, or perhaps people in her office passed on the reports of the Treasury meeting a few days previously?

It doesn’t seem at all impossible – and I’m not sure any OIA so far (that I’ve heard of) would have captured this – that she, or someone senior acting on her behalf, got hold of Quigley (keeping Rennie in the loop) and indicated that Orr’s performance was intolerable, and that he really had to go. The specific incidents may have been like a heaven-sent opportunity, with Orr laying himself open, by having openly embarrassed the Board chair and Board as a whole, at a very delicate time re the Funding Agreement, by egregious behaviour – unacceptable in any official – in front of the two groups (MInister and Treasury) they needed to avoid antagonising to try to get a decent settlement. Perhaps Quigley intimated that he had a long list of behavioural issues re Orr that he’d built up over several years, and reckoned the Board would probably have had enongh too. Both sides will have known that only the Minister could fire the Governor – and she wouldn’t want to have done that directly – but it will have become apparent that they had leverage and could put pressure on, that would be likely to result in his “personal decision” to leave. And if something like that is what went on, maybe the Minister – conscious of maintaining semi-plausible deniability – indicated that whatever it took should be done, and don’t bother me with (or show me) the details.

It fits the facts we have better than any other story so far, including in making sense of why Willis has been so over the top in her disavowal of any involvement and insisting (contrary to the law) that hiring and firing etc Governors was just a matter for the Board, nothing to do with her. And, of course, of why there was an exit agreement – negotiated by senior counsel at all – with gag orders etc: they wouldn’t have been willing, probably, to directly fire Orr (judicial review has always been a risk too), and so he could insist on (some) terms, but it isn’t clear that Quigley isn’t using them to protect himself too.

If the truth is anything like this – another layer behind the story from my source, which itself so far looks sound – perhaps where they (the Minister in particular) misjudged was in putting too much confidence in Quigley to deal with the public side of things (if so, pretty inexcusable on her part as Quigley has no track record of being a deft and effective or trustworthy communicator). Both after 11 June and again yesterday the Minister has indicated that she isn’t satisfied with what the Board has said (or not said). From the interview yesterday

I have also however previously shared my disappointment at the way information on this matter has been shared with New Zealanders. Today I had a prescheduled meeting with the entire Board of the Reserve Bank and at that meeting I sought to convey to everyone present that I was disappointed with the way that this matter had been handled given the ongoing public speculation because it is in New Zealand’s interest that the Reserve Bank maintains its reputation at all times and I think with better handling we would not still be having these interviews and this discussion.

Well, indeed, but what did you expect? They never seem to have had lines that they’d effectively stress-tested (to stand up for more than a few minutes – 5 March – or hours – 11 June) and hadn’t even got the process straight (witness what the Bank has already confirmed that the Minister was putting pressure on on the afternoon of 5 March for Quigley to do a press conference he didn’t really want to do – something surely that should have been sorted out in advance and properly rehearsed). The Minister clearly now isn’t that happy with the ongoing OIA obstructionism, and she is quite right to suggest that better handling of this whole thing would have seen it as yesterday’s story, one for next history of the RB, pretty quickly, perhaps within a week or two of 5 March. Instead, here we are, months on, and so many unanswered questions, including from the Minister herself, and with the Ombudsman all over the issues.

The Minister’s main message yesterday – to various outlets – was that she still had confidence in Neil Quigley as Board chair (which since she could have fired him at will and hasn’t we pretty well knew that by revealed preference).

But why? Some speculate that perhaps it has to do with the medical school – might not be a good look, might undermine confidence, to toss Quigley out the very week the government had granted him his controversial new medical school.

But it might also be that in some sense in fact she is deeply grateful to Neil Quigley, for having done the dirty work, possibly at her own bidding, and got rid of Orr. Perhaps somehow that compensates for the Clouseau-like performance over months since – only worse than Clouseau because it is quite clear that Quigley wasn’t just bad at this stuff, but that he had, and has, consciously and repeatedly set out to mislead New Zealanders.

In one of those quotes a little way back up the page the Minister rightly stressed the importance of the reputation of a central bank. The Bank knows it too. This is from their recent Statement of Performance Expectations

But the problem is that we (and they) are starting from things as they are, and it is hard to see anyone with even a modicum of interest could have any trust at all in our powerful independent central bank and those who run it. There have been repeated policy failures, bloated budgets (and spending last year left to run wild while the Minister did nothing to rein in the Governor or Board chair), lies to Parliament, lies to the Treasury (see final bit of this post on Quigley and the first MPC), pretty weak (or worse) policy communications, top tiers of management currently held by people simply not fit for the job, a Governor with serious behavioural issues left unchecked for years, and now all this……the active misleading, the cover-up, and (from the chair) the sheer disdain for any sense of public accountability or interest. Oh, and a Minister who did nothing about any of this for her first year or so in office – about conduct, about fiscal excesses, about replacing the chair, about filling board vacancies, about simply insisting on something a lot closer to both excellence and openness.

And that is among the reason why Quigley really should resign or be sacked now. There will be a new Governor later in the year. That person will need to sweep clean. But how can we have any initial confidence in a new Governor – whether some stray Canadian hand-me-down not likely ever to make Governor at home, as speculated in the press the other day, or whoever – when that person has been selected by a process led by the same chap who delivered us Orr in the first place, who championed his reappointment despite all failings being evident by then, who presided over that budget-blowing (well Funding Agreement blowing) last year, and who can’t or won’t even give a straight story – somewhat diplomatic as it might have to be – about the early departure of the last Governor.

Anyway, some questions to ask. Perhaps the story here is also nothing like the truth. But it is beyond time for the truth to be told and a clean breast to be made of things. And if what happened is something like what is suggested here, it should mean some very serious questions indeed for the Minister of Finance as regards her part in misleading New Zealanders. Not exactly a sound basis for trust.

(UPDATE: To be clear, if the Minister did engineer Orr’s departure along these sorts of lines, then well done her – found an opportunity and seized it – and there should be no harrumphing about affronts to central bank independence. But the subsequent spin, misdirection etc would still raise very real questions.)

Bad behaviour: Orr, Quigley, and the rest

On 11 June the Reserve Bank finally (more than three months after his departure) did a pro-active release of carefully selected documents relating to the departure of Adrian Orr. Those documents purported to respond to various OIA requests, although many elements of events around the departure, and many elements of the OIA requests, were simply ignored. It appeared to be a belated attempt to shape the narrative, never mind the law.

I’ve done a number of posts on these issues since 11 June, drawing partly on what the Bank released in that package, and on various interviews, and some other OIA releases, all to try to make more sense of what really went on in the months, days, and weeks leading up to the resignation and sudden departure of the central bank Governor.

and last week this

That last post, from last Thursday, prompted someone who seems to have been very close to events back in February/March to contact me out of the blue with a number of quite detailed comments about some of what really seems to have happened. I do not know who the person is.

I also cannot directly verify what follows. I have however this morning lodged a series of Official Information Act requests with the Minister of Finance, the Reserve Bank, and The Treasury in an attempt to check key elements of the account. My overall sense is that the account is likely to be trustworthy. It is written in a calm style, in places details fit with other stuff that is already in the public domain, and the author is not black and white (at one point Quigley is defended, on another where part of the account appears to be secondhand, the lack of certainty is explicitly acknowledged). My interactions since suggest someone who, while a little fearful for their own position, is frustrated at the lack of transparency (including abuse of the OIA) and believes more of the story needs to be told. Could I be being played? I suppose so, but on balance I don’t think that is what is happening.

When I was contacted, the person commented positively on what I have written about these events and suggested that they wanted to fill in some gaps. I will step through the various elements of the account I have been given, and will explain how what I was told fits with other stuff we know, or seems to fill gaps. As I noted to the person, their account “isn’t overly surprising unfortunately”.

The person who sent me this account out of the blue asked just that I keep their details confidential (I have barely any). I was still a little unsure what they envisaged or hoped for, so I went back and explicitly asked what, if any, of what they had sent me they would be happy with me using here. I noted that an alternative would simply be that I used what had been provided to shape some more OIAs without referring directly to anything in this correspondence. I also suggested that I might not be the ideal vehicle if they did want the material publicised and explicitly noted that, for example, the Herald had given these issues serious coverage and might be a better vehicle (including – a point I didn’t make explicitly – because they could ring up people in power and ask follow-up questions directly).

I was uneasy about the idea of using direct quotes since, in principle, writing style could be used if someone (a past or present employer) wanted to try to track down the individual. Independent of that unease, my correspondent got back in touch and explicitly indicated that they were okay with me using their information here, subject to using paraphrases rather than direct quotes. They reiterated both an unease about their personal risk and a view that the story should be told. They have made several mentions of the public interest considerations that are supposed to be of importance in dealing with OIAs.

And so here goes:

In last week’s post, I referred to a mention in a recent OIA response from the Reserve Bank that an hour or so after Orr’s resignation had been announced the Minister of Finance’s office had asked Neil Quigley to do a press conference. According to the Bank’s account, “the Minister thought it was important for the chair to front the media and possibly to calm the markets”. I’d noted in another post that no one had made Quigley do this press conference (which proved to be a bit of train wreck).

My correspondent starts by noting that in their view on this point I had been a bit unfair to Quigley. It is claimed that Quigley did not want to talk to the media (something I can quite believe, based both on his past behaviour and his responses to questions on and after 11 June) and had made that clear to management. My correspondent states that it actually took multiple communications, texts and calls with/from both the Minister herself and people in her office, before Quigley finally agreed to do so. There was no hint of any of this in the 11 June Reserve Bank release and my correspondent indicates that it was material that was within-scope for at least some OIA requests on events around the Orr resignation (including, I believe, mine). I still maintain that it was Quigley’s choice to do the press conference, but clearly he was put under considerable pressure.

In and of itself, it is not a revelation of great moment. However, the Minister of Finance has consistently attempted to distance herself from events around the Orr resignation, having claimed variously that she had no knowledge of why Orr resigned (“I have always been able to speculate”) and had no contact with the Board or Board chair on such matters (even though the Governor’s resignation had to be made to her not to the Board and – more a matter of substance than law – this was the very powerful chief executive of one of her main agencies). Perhaps it also points to the chaos of the day: recall that an earlier Herald OIA had revealed that Orr’s resignation had been brought forward on the morning of Wednesday 5 March to that day rather than, as planned until then, the following Monday. One might have supposed that the Bank, the Board chair, and the Minister and her office would have sorted out who would say what when before the resignation statement went out.

The second leg of the story goes to the heart of the resignation itself.

Recall that the Bank has tried to spin us a story that it was all about disputes over the Funding Agreement. This extract is from the (final version of the) statement the Bank published on 11 June.

An earlier (but near-final) draft – which they sent in error that morning to OIA requesters – had tied it more to a meeting between Orr, Quigley, Treasury officials and Willis on 24 February.

I noted then that it clearly wasn’t correct to characterise this as just a dispute over funding (as much media coverage did), since many public service CEOs have had disappointed expectations in the last 18 months and none of them had resigned with no notice. In one of my post 11 June posts I even observed (but briefly and without follow up) that it really wasn’t clear to what extent Orr had chosen to go and to what extent he’d been pushed.

My correspondent suggests there was a very considerable element of push to it, and that funding disputes were really no more than the immediate presenting context.

You may recall that an earlier Herald OIA (reported here) reported some Q&As that the Minister’s staff had prepared for her around the resignation included the telling one “Did the governor ever raise his voice with you?”, which it was suggested she should avoid answering, clearly suggesting that exactly such a “voice raising” had in fact occurred. As David Farrar put it at the time

My correspondent says “raising his voice” was the least of it, reporting that at a meeting with Treasury on 21 February the Governor had completely lost his cool, behaving in a way that was “completely inappropriate and swearing” and that it had been much the same in the 24 February meeting with the Minister.

The timing of these events is pretty clear. The fact of the 24 February meeting has long been known. Of the meeting on the 21st we hadn’t previously heard directly, but it is likely to be the one proposed in this email from Quigley that was in the 11 June release pack

but ended up happening on the 21st rather than the afternoon of the 20th as Neil had proposed. The Bank clearly envisaged by this point that it was going to be smooth sailing on the Funding Agreement from here and that everything could be tied up within a few days. Clearly, that wasn’t what happened…..and as context for Orr completely losing it (if in fact he did) it sounds quite plausible and aligned to the facts.

Now, in this debauched age swearing isn’t uncommon and newspapers have taken to reporting crass and vulgar language directly. If you are less bothered by such behaviour than I am, it was still pretty extraordinary for an official – no matter how senior – to completely lose it in crucial meetings, most particularly with/to the Minister herself. You could see why future working relationships might be impaired – not by differences over approved spending (just the meat and drink of bureaucratic life) but over Orr’s quite extraordinary conduct. Or rather, just the latest episode.

Because my correspondent goes on. The claim made to me, quite specifically, is that on 27 February Neil Quigley, as Board chair, sent an email to Orr which had an attached “Statement of Concerns” outlining quite a range of concrete and specific issues with the Governor’s behaviour covering several years (and not about funding). Quigley is reported to have asked Orr to respond. It was this, my correspondent says, that triggered Orr’s resignation.

The story fits with other things we know. The Bank’s Board met, for seven hours on 27 February. As I noted last week there is nothing in the minutes about the Funding Agreement, nor of course about Orr. It seems that such issues were all discussed in a (probably protracted) “Board-only time”, perhaps in part (also not disclosed in the minutes) without the Governor. We know that 27 February is also when Quigley advised Rennie who advised Willis that something was in the works re Orr’s future. And (although I can’t track it down this minute) if I recall correctly the exit agreement negotiations occurred over the couple of days after 27 February, and were concluded on Monday 3 March.

The story, if true, also goes some way to the mystery of the exit agreement which – we’ve been told – included gag provisions of some sort. When it appeared that the exit had been driven solely from Orr’s side it was very puzzling why the Board agreed to any such restrictions (setting aside the fact that resignation was a matter for which the Minister was responsible for dealing with).

But for the Board – and we must presume that Quigley wouldn’t have been acting without their support – to have presented Orr with a memo documenting behavioural concerns over several years, and explicitly seeking a response, they must have got to the point where, even if they wouldn’t put it in quite so many words, they had lost confidence in the Governor. When things get to that point, exit is a pretty common option (at lower levels, when public servants are told they are going to be put on performance improvement plans it isn’t unheard of them for them to up and resign, saving everyone the pain, and the employee the CV issues, of a dismissal process). But Orr still held a few cards: he was only two years into a second five year term, the Board couldn’t fire him, and (even with serious behavioural concerns) it would not have been easy for the Minister to have fired him (intense scrutiny, political controversy and all). So perhaps he told Quigley “I’ll go, so long as no one tells the truth about what went on”. By then perhaps it seemed cheap at the price to Quigley (bearing in mind, even more mundanely, that Orr’s record was an an empire builder not as a cutter and chopper, adjusting to budgetary restraint and – as the Bank’s 11 June statement notes by then the Board had accepted that much lower budgets were coming).

Who knows what items were on that behavioural concerns list, if such there was. Even on the things in the public domain there were so many to choose from over Orr’s time as Governor, let alone all the stories that seep out from those who were there. Why, on the very morning before he’s reported to have completely lost his cool at Treasury, he’d been lying to FEC (again). None of this, sadly, seems very surprising. If there is a surprise it is that the Board had finally – finally – chosen to take a stand. With one exception (new Board member) these board members had all been responsible for recommending Orr’s reappointment in late 2022, when almost all the concerns – well, perhaps not swearing etc at ministers – were already documented. At the time, Quigley signed the recommendation with this

At the time I observed

They must have known then – Quigley more than most (much of the Board was new, but Quigley had been there throughout, chairing the board that first nominated him in 2017) – just how detached from reality that endorsement was. Of course, Robertson will have known too (I’m looking forward to how his book, due out next month, treats Orr).

But, we must be fair, and give the Board some credit for finally acting, possibly under pressure.

What then becomes utterly inexplicable is the decision to lie about what went on.

It isn’t just the press release on 5 March which was spin from start to finish, lauding Orr’s contribution, including in “modernising its culture” (losing your cool and swearing?), or Quigley’s statement – released by the Bank – a bit later that afternoon

We were clearly supposed then to believe that a long-serving Governor was, perhaps, tired, and having done his one big job he decided – Cincinnatus-like – to take a step back and return to private life. It seemed unlikely then. It is pretty clearly outrightly false now.

(As previously documented from the 11 June release, the Bank (Hawkesby) ran the same utterly misleading line to staff.)

And if those statements weren’t bad enough, there was the press conference. Even accepting that Quigley was pushed into doing it by the Minister, surely, surely, he must have rehearsed his lines and tested how he was going to answer the inevitable questions he would face?

At the press conference, Quigley started off with “he felt it was just the right time to go” sort of stuff, highlighting all he’d done. Then when he was asked if the Board still had confidence in Adrian he responded – avoiding the specific question

“My relationship with Adrian has been very good, and I have confidence in Adrian. Yes, he and I have been through a lot in my time as board chair of his time as governor, and with the pandemic and everything else, we have very good memories of the challenges that we have confronted.”

I recall noting earlier that interesting juxtaposition (he claimed he still had confidence, avoided answering about the Board), but how can we possibly now believe Quigley was being honest even reporting his own views. You don’t send a written statement of multi-year behavioural concerns by email and ask, by email, for a response when you have confidence in your CEO (a quiet CEO/Chair chat might be a different kettle of fish).

There were then actively misleading answers about the Funding Agreement before we got this

Q: What has been the precipitating factor to what you call this personal decision?

A: I think you have to remember that the job of the Reserve Bank Governor is one where you face unrelenting critique of your actions. You know, no matter what you do, there are near alternatives that other people say that they would have taken. And so there is a time when you think having achieved what you wanted to achieve, that’s That’s enough.

I suppose just possibly he had in mind some “unrelenting critique” that included the Board, but it was clearly a deliberate exercise in deception, all the more so if today’s account is accurate.

It goes on and on (bringing to mind Peter Mahon’s famous line on Air New Zealand) including

Q: Can you just be clear that no, policy, conduct and performance issues are at the center of this resignation?

A: We have issues that we’ve been working through, but there are no issues of that type that are behind this.

You’ll recall that when challenged on some of this after the 11 June release, Quigley first attempted to fob off questions suggesting he wasn’t going to be grilled by a journalist acting like a courtroom lawyer, only to fall back on the excuse of the supposed gag orders (the details of which have never been released). But gag orders do not oblige (or excuse) chairs of powerful government organisations to go out and actively misrepresent what actually was going on. Don’t hold a press conference if you can’t or won’t give straight answers.

So far, we have heard quite a bit about Orr’s conduct. Quigley’s has long been pretty egregious as well, centred on his repeated and deliberate attempts to mislead as regards appointments to the first MPC (summarised again here). My correspondent added some more, on top of the already documented public cover-up and avoidance of scrutiny efforts around the resignation. According to the correspondent, any records of that meeting with Treasury on 21 February were within-scope of at least one of the OIA requests (not mine). It turns out that Treasury staff at the meeting had written up a record of the meeting (which would seem to be a normal thing to do), but that when Quigley learned of this record he went apopolectic (my word, but captures the flavour of my correspondent’s words) – not just internally, but rang Treasury to complain vigorously. It is reported that in meeting some or other OIA request the Bank so heavily redacted that document that an RB comms manager could boast that they’d rendered it useless. [UPDATE 23/7: Rereading my source, this claim is actually about the Treasury record of the meeting of 24 February with the Minister and Treasury.]

On its own, again perhaps not so surprising. Senior public officials often don’t like stuff being written down – discovery risks and all that awkward stuff, scrutiny – but…..the Official Information Act is the law, and there are overriding considerations of public interest. The Bank’s approach (most likely either acquiesced in by the Board chair or driven by him) has been to release absolutely as little as possible, as inconsequential as possible (so note that the 11 June release had quite a few bits and pieces, but most shed no light at all, and almost none of those that might shed light were released at all. OIAs were – and are being – simply ignored.

The final point in my correspondent’s statement related to an issue I wasn’t aware of at all, and isn’t directly related to the Orr departure. The correspondent claims that the Bank is about to move its Auckland office into one of the plusher buildings down near the waterfront (PWC Tower, which seems to boast all sorts of Orr-pleasing green credentials). I have no way of knowing if this is so, but published board minutes certainly reveal that they were planning to shift and suggest that in March negotiations were still ongoing. The suggestion is that the space being leased is “three times” what would be needed for the staff there, the more so after the Funding Agreement cuts. The report from my correspondent is that management – post Orr – suggested reconsidering (optics, job losses, and all that) but that the Board itself refused, and that by the time the final decision was made the Board knew the lower level the new Funding Agreement would be set at. My correspondent seems very confident about all that, but notes that they are not sure of the reasons, reporting only a general sense among Bank people that the Board had wanted fancy spaces for themselves. Staff will speculate, staff may have that one wrong, but it doesn’t sound like a very good look at all. Again, occurring on Quigley’s watch.

If offence it is, it is certainly one of the lesser ones, but it does point in the direction of the Funding Agreement not actually having been cut to the bone. You’ll recall last week’s post that the Bank’s operating expenses in 2025/26 will be 12 per cent above the level in 2023/24, the last year budgets were set under Labour, and that line about the culture of excess that Quigley had included in his last ditch bid in March to limit the cuts the Minister was going to impose.

This has been a long post. As noted earlier, I have lodged a number of new OIAs, with the aim of trying to verify as much as possible of what is reported here. I expect there will be more obfuscation and outright ignoring of requests, although if so that will be telling in itself.

None of it leaves anyone looking very good (although perhaps it partly redeems the standing, at that late date at least, of the Board members other than Quigley). We have not had straight answers yet from either Quigley or the Minister of Finance (and have heard nothing at all from Orr, which might perhaps be more understandable if he really was close to having been forced out on conduct/behavioural grounds). And OIAs continue to be ignored.

If this were just any junior public servant of course things would be different. There would be no particular public interest in disclosure. But we are talking here about the sudden departure of one of the most powerful and highly paid officials in New Zealand, who had often boasted (mostly not correctly) of how open and transparent he and his institution were. And yet someone who used his office to treat people poorly, in some cases (it seems) abominably, and of course who had such a questionable policy record too – all that (core) inflation, all that economic dislocation, those $11 billion of losses for taxpayers. We deserve some honesty. And it remains almost beyond belief that after all this not only is Neil Quigley still in office, but that he is now leading the search for the nominee for a new Governor. Because his last pick worked out so well?

A month ago, I wrapped up a series of posts on these issues with one posing 41 Questions for the Board, for Quigley, for Willis, for Treasury, and for the temporary Governor Christian Hawkesby. Most remain outstanding.

UPDATE: I hadn’t known there was any accessible footage of Quigley’s 5 March press conference (and some Wilis comments) but here is a link that contains many of his answers. Nothing new beyond what I’ve previously quoted from a written transcript, but fyi.

Hard to believe really

Take a scenario, just as a thought experiment for now.

A new government gets elected, amid a lot of rhetoric about excessive increases in government spending and public service numbers. They pretty quickly move to require government departments – typically funded by Parliament through annual appropriations – to cut their spending. Typically these agencies were being expected to make cuts of 6.5 per cent or 7.5 per cent.

You are part of the governance structure – Board member, CEO, perhaps other top tier managers – of a powerful public agency, one that doesn’t really do “frontline services” types of stuff, but also one that isn’t directly funded by Parliament. Instead, by law every few years your agency agrees with the Minister of Finance how much you can spend for each of the following few years. When the government changes there is still a little more than 18 months to run on your latest agreement – itself in fact a variation agreement made just a few months earlier, just before the election, that had substantially increased how much your agency could spend over the remainder of the agreement period.

How would you react in such a situation? (How do you like to think you would have reacted?)

One other big agency in New Zealand, not directly funded by Parliament either and not directly subject to the new government’s savings target, early on decided that they really needed to move with the spirit of the new environment. They (Board and CE presumably) adopted a 6.5 per cent cut themselves, telling the media that while they weren’t within the formal government plans “there’s a very clear expectation that we’ll make material cost saving”.

It is the sort of way I hope I’d have behaved had I been in their shoes.

Of course, there is another approach. After all, under the law governing this agency, they get to set their own annual budget. Remember that there is an agreement with the Minister, but actually there is nothing in law that forces them to actually spend in line with that agreement, and no direct consequences if they fail to do so.

So, another possibility, knowing that your agreement has 18 months or so to run, is simply to ramp up your organisation’s budget for the final year of that old agreement – perhaps to levels well above what is approved in the agreement – and then when it comes time to negotiate with the Minister of Finance on spending levels for the following five years, you simply offer up a 7.5 per cent saving from the hugely increased budget you yourself had set just a couple of months previously (all while shuffling a few more costs into the out-of-scope category to reduce even further the extent of the proposed “savings”).

And that, readers, is the story of what Adrian Orr, Neil Quigley, and the Reserve Bank’s Board did. It was simply extraordinary. Quite shameless really. Longstanding readers will know I have not been a fan of the Orr/Quigley stewardship of the Bank but…..I wouldn’t have guessed, without seeing it in writing, that their approach would be quite so openly shameless.

I wrote about the Bank’s new Funding Agreement quite a bit last month. The final and most comprehensive post was here. There are still lots of unanswered questions, but in early May – just before I headed off to PNG – the Bank released on its website a redacted version of the initial bid they had put in to Treasury, as adviser to the Minister of Finance, in September 2024 (NB: Thanks to the RB comms person who got in touch to draw my attention to this document.) This was the bid for $1 billion or so ($981 million opex and $50 million capex, both over five years), for things that would be covered by the Funding Agreement (quite a lot wouldn’t). I only got back to reading it this week.

To recap, in September 2023 Grant Robertson had agreed to a (further) increase in the Bank’s Funding Agreement spending for the last two years of the 2020-2025 agreement. For the year to 30 June 2025, the amount of core operational spending Robertson had approved was $149.44 million. In that previous funding agreement there was also a separate line item for direct currency issue expenses and Robertson agreed that if they underspent that they could use the balance for general operating expenses. That gave them perhaps another $5 million.

So as the Bank’s Board and management approached the setting of the 2024/25 Budget those were the parameters they were supposed to be working within. But they also had information from the Minister of Finance about future intentions. On 3 April she had sent the Board her annual Letter of Expectation, which contained these points

In the general

And the specific

A responsible Board member would surely then have read the times and concluded that (a) they really needed to ensure that the 2024/25 Budget was, at worst, no higher than what Grant Robertson had allowed (bearing in mind that most agencies were getting those 6.5 to 7.5 per cuts even in 2024/25) and b) that any bids for the new 2025-30 Funding Agreement should be kept no higher (whether in real or nominal terms) than the 2024/25 approved level of spending. The focus was clearly intended to be reprioritisation, not further increases (in an organisation whose operating spending and staff numbers had already increased massively in recent years).

That is what a responsible Board member, looking to the public interest etc, would have done.

It wasn’t what the actual Board and senior management did. Instead, they adopted and published a budget for operating spending (captured by the Funding Agreement) of $191 million for 2024/25. Recall the spending that Grant Robertson – Mr Big Spender himself as Minister of Finance – had allowed the Bank for 24/25: $149.44m plus (on their budget) $5.5m from the underspend of their direct currency expenses allowance. The approved budget for 24/25, on items covered by the Funding Agreement, was 23 per cent in excess of what Robertson had allowed them, having already had those counsels of restraint from the Minister of Finance in her April letter. (As I noted in earlier post, there are mysteries around whether the Minister raised any objection at the time – she had to be consulted – which maybe an outstanding OIA will shed some light on, but that isn’t the focus of this post.)

That Budget was approved in June 2024 and in late August the Board approved the Funding Agreement bid (note that the current “temporary Governor” while not then a full Board member himself was in attendance throughout the relevant Board meeting). It was sent off to the acting Secretary to the Treasury, signed by both Orr and Quigley, on 13 September. And here from the second page of the covering letter (with a 40+ page document) was how their bid was sold, in blaring headline

In the body of the document it is repeated: “this approach would achieve savings of 7.5 per cent from our baseline operating expenditure, as requested by the Minister of Finance” [a footnote here refers the reader to the 3 April Letter of Expectation].

Ramp up the budget to 23 per cent above (previous Minister’s) authorised levels…..and then graciously offer a 7.5 per cent “cut” from that level. Really quite breathtaking… In fact in the previous paragraph they carefully noted that they had “had regard” to the Minister’s stance in her Letter of Expectation. Read, thought about, and then ignored would seem a more accurate description, all while attempting to spin Treasury and the Minister of Finance (nowhere in the document do they claim, for example, that the previous Funding Agreement levels were inadequate and needed to be increased. They simply take their own budget as the starting point, claim to have heeded the Minister, and end up “offering” a level of spending well above (in real and nominal terms) what even Grant Robertson had approved.

There is more sleight of hand when it comes to staff numbers. The government had seemed to be looking for agencies to be slimming staff numbers. In the year to June 2024 the Bank had increased staff numbers by 18 per cent (another 90 people), and in their Funding Agreement bid you get the sense that the “current headcount” was, in their view, roughly adequate for the things they had to do. And in fact later in the document they suggest that their preferred option would involve a net headcount reduction of 19 people. But what they didn’t point out to Treasury (or thus to the Minister) is that at the very same time they were handwaving about potential savings, they were going hell-for-leather to further increase staff numbers. We know this because the paper the Minister of Finance finally took to Cabinet in March tells us that the Bank increased staff numbers from the 601 at the end of June 2024 to 660 (FTE) by the end of January 2025. So they had no intention of actually cutting staff numbers, just of slightly slowing the rapid further increase they were already recruiting for. Now, sure, acute readers must have realised that such a huge operating budget increase in 2024/25 must have involved further increases in staff numbers, but….they were left to work it out for themselves. In a political and public spending climate in which Orr and Quigley and all the rest of them were only too well aware of sensitivities around rising staff numbers.

It is all pretty disreputable, shabby, and borderline dishonest (I didn’t spot an actual verifiable lie in the document; it was all in the self-serving misleading framing). Among the ongoing mysteries is why, when Treasury received this bid, they didn’t take a quick look and send it straight back with a demand that the Board revise the starting point back to (say) the previously approved (by Robertson) level of opex, not the Board’s own inflated budget which bore no relation to what the previous Minister of Finance had approved them spending. It wasn’t until March this year, after Orr’s departure, that there was finally a revised (much lower) submission.

And although the Orr/Quigley initial submission had strongly suggested that the Bank needed every one of the proposed billion dollars to function, reality seems to disagree. Just a couple of weeks ago the “temporary Governor” completed a restructuring of his top tier, in which the number of (very expensive) roles was reduced from about nine to four. Not hard to economise when you try (when the Minister’s choices finally compelled it). The Governor has gone of course (he’ll eventually be replaced), as have Assistant Governors Smith (finance), Kolich (data), Robbers (strategy, governance, and sustainability), Strategic Adviser Prince, and the grapevine reports that another of the Orr hires, Assistant Governor Owen (risk and legal) has also resigned. It is really only a start, since Board chair Neil Quigley and all the board members who approved and endorsed this egregious funding bid are still there (although the terms of two expire next month). And are we really to believe that all along the Deputy Governor, Hawkesby, hadn’t been endorsing the approach?

And then, of course, there is the lack of transparency. In that Funding Agreement bid they explicitly told Treasury that once a new agreement was reached “our intent is to publish the final version of our Funding Proposal on our website”. Which sounds quite good, but…. the new Funding Agreement was published on 16 April. It is now 20 May, and although they have published a redacted version of the first proposal (which is a start) there is no sign of the final revised March bid. In fact, I have an OIA request in for it

Just yesterday I heard back from the Bank

Of these:

  • the first relates to the question of whether the Minister ever pushed back on the proposed 24/25 budget
  • the second covers two specific and easily identified documents (the first now released – see above), and
  • the third is to shed light on whether the Board pushed back at all on what management was proposing (is the final version different in any material extent to what went to Treasury.

None of these documents will take any particular effort to find, and at least one they promised Treasury nine months ago they’d publish. But…..in the way of public sector obstructionism, they’ve just taken another six weeks to respond to a fairly straightforward request. Isn’t that convenient for them.

It really is staggering that a government-appointed Board chair could try it on quite as egregiously as Quigley did (in league with Orr) and still hold his very well-paid role ($200000 for a part-time role), including leading the process of selecting a nominee to be the next Governor.

Really?

A few weeks ago an invitation dropped into my email inbox to attend a joint Treasury/Motu seminar on recent, rather major, changes that had apparently been made to the discount rates used by The Treasury to evaluate proposals from government agencies.

It was all news to me, but when I went over to The Treasury’s website I found that the new policy had come into effect on 1 October last year (relevant Treasury circular here) and that the work on this major policy change had apparently going on for a long time, dating back to the days of the previous government (the two consultant reports are both dated June 2023). All the papers Treasury has released are here (I have also now lodged an OIA request for other relevant papers, including advice etc to current or former Ministers of Finance).

The new discount rates are shown here

This is a dramatically different model than what had been used until now, when all projects were required, as a starting point, to be evaluated using a 5 per cent real discount rate.

I have read all the papers The Treasury released and went along to the seminar on Monday, and came away even more troubled – about both the public policy and analytical dimensions – than I had been initially. Why, you might ask, should commercial projects be evaluated at dramatically different rates than non-commercial projects? Who is going to decide what counts as “commercial” and what as “non-commercial” (and should so much hang on what must, at the margin at least, be something of a line call)? And why would a change of this magnitude, which will materially affect advice going to ministers across the whole of government have been done with no public consultation whatever (and Treasury confirmed to me that this had indeed been the case, and that such consultation as there had been had only been with other government entities)?

But, first, those acronyms: SOC (social opportunity cost) and SRTP (social rate of time preference). Under certain restrictive conditions these two things should be the same, but estimates of them are rarely even close. There is a vast literature on this stuff, going back many decades.

Here is how The Treasury describes the two approaches

There is quite a bit of (questionable) editorial in these descriptions, but the gist is fine: SOC is designed to capture the cost to “society” of funding some public sector proposal (funds could be used for other purposes and projects by firms or individuals), while SRTP attempts to capture how much current consumption “society” (however represented) is willing to give up in exchange for more future consumption.

For decades, Treasury has used a SOC-based approach here, and in my view were right to do so. Of the other countries shown in the various reports, it seems that a majority also use the SOC approach while a small group of European countries used a SRTP approach.

Treasury and their consultants all seem to agree that on straightforward commercial projects, the SOC approach is the only sensible one to take. To do anything else – to use a materially lower discount rate – would be to skew the playing field in favour of the government investing in commercial projects that the private sector could do just as well. In that sense, moving to an 8 per cent real discount rate for unquestionably commercial projects is a step in the right direction (although I suspect that even at 8 per cent, the discount rate is likely to be lower than the hurdle rates of return required by many/most private sector companies in deciding on investment proposals).

A common argument that claims this is okay is based on the fact that government bond yields are typically lower than those for corporate bonds. I’ve long thought (and written about here) that that is a deeply flawed argument, because a key reason government bond yields are lower than those of private sector securities (no matter how large the corporate) is that government’s ability to pay is secured on the coercive power to tax, and that risk (to us, as taxpayers) needs to be priced in evaluating proposals to spend public money. All the more so when one realises that the likelihood of draconian tax increases to meet government obligations is probably pretty strongly correlated with adverse economic circumstances in the wider economy (and thus for the ability of taxpayers to comfortably pay). I’ve also long been uneasy about the idea that public sector proposals should be evaluated at rates that are probably below private sector hurdle rates because of the utter absence of market disciplines government agencies and politicians as decisionmakers face. When people who face no market disciplines want to take our money – tax now, or via debt – and use it on long-term projects, it seems not unreasonable that their schemes should be evaluated on at least as demanding a basis (but ideally more demanding) as private commercial entities do. After all, it is a pretty widely-accepted stylised fact that cost over-runs and execution failures are more the norm than the exception in major public projects in New Zealand (not only New Zealand of course). Remarkably, in none of the Treasury papers nor in the seminar on Monday was there any mention of incentives and disciplines: government failure was all but unknown in a land of benevolent and wise social planners.

But commercial projects (ones that are clearly so) are the easy bit of all this. The latest change was at least a step in the right direction. And the Treasury circular is clear that

The real problem arises in respect of the “non-commercial proposals”. You will look in vain in the Treasury Circular for any official justification for using such wildly different discount rates for the two types of proposals, with the far lower discount rates for those proposals that – almost by assumption – are subject to fewer market-type tests and greater uncertainty (including about specifying benefits and objectives). It will be interesting to see how The Treasury framed advice on this issue to the Minister of Finance. One hopes they mentioned that even so-called non-commercial projects have an opportunity cost – a real burden on taxpayers whose money could be used for other things.

Now, in fairness, the background papers briefly mentioned some arguments (including suggestions that future generations are not represented in today’s market prices, but may be represented by a benevolent government decisionmaker – although it is never clear why (eg) families are less likely to internalise interests of future generations than governments, the latter being individuals facing re-election every three years, and no effort is made to evaluate the actual demonstrated interest in or ability of past or present governments to effectively represent those interests). However, the main paper Treasury cites, that by academic economist Arthur Grimes, has just three recommendations at the end, and not one of them is for anything like this stark (although he notes that “long-term payoffs to projects for which the populace is likely to have a lower rate of pure time discount compared to that for generalised consumption could have a lower [social discount rate] than the default rate….This proposal…is one which warrants further investigation). Grimes was a little sharper in his slides on Monday, but even then his proposal was only for lower discount rates for “some non-market activities” (and quite whose preferences were to guide the choice of “some” wasn’t clear).

What that 2 per cent discount rate for non-commercial proposal does is to ignore the actual opportunity cost of funds (that 8 per cent, or more) and preference – in ranking possible proposals for using scarce societal resources – non-commercial proposals (that generally won’t cover the social cost of capital) over commercial ones. And that is quite regardless of the character of the individual non-commercial proposal, a category that even in concept covers a vast array of possibilities. It is really quite extraordinary, and perhaps all the more so to see it adopted by this government, which came into office focused (at least rhetorically) on low quality government spending, the rapid run-up in debt under the previous government. (I had been unsure until Monday whether these policies had simply been adopted by Treasury, but I was assured by Treasury officials that they had in fact been signed off by the current Minister of Finance).

Now, to be clear, there are some caveats. First, discount rates aren’t everything. All too often cost-benefit analyses have simply been ignored, even when done. And if one looked at the table of discount rates used in other countries that was presented on Monday, the only country using a lower discount rate than the New Zealand 2 per cent is Germany – a country that many of the great and good think does far too little government capital spending (their debt brake – a very sensible initiative in my view – acts as a constraint presumably). In a New Zealand context, simply changing discount rates won’t of itself get more projects off the ground.

But both operating and capital allowances are fluid over time – they are no sort of anchor – and there is no real debt constraint at all. What the change to discount rates will do is make many more non-commercial projects look to pass a cost-benefit assessment, creating pressure from interested parties on governments to raise taxes or take on more debt “because, you can see, so many good projects just aren’t being funded”. And going by the mood of the room on Monday – most attendees seemed to be public service affiliated – many officials will think that just a fine thing indeed (there were people getting up and thanking Treasury for making this change, which would make such a difference to their preferred types of schemes). What was the Minister of Finance thinking when she signed this off?

Especially as the entire thing seems like an indeterminate muddle.

First, there is this table from the Treasury circular, designed to assist agency CEs and CFOs in doing their cost-benefit analyses.

So things that politicians or officials happen to think are good for people (“merit goods”) – whether we value them or not – get evaluated at a much more favourable (lower) discount rate than other stuff. But even setting points like that aside, one is left with more questions than answers. Take schools for instance. Most are provided directly by the state with no charge at point of use, but not all are, and there is no technical reason why a quite different operating model couldn’t be chosen. Same goes for health and hospitals. Are they “commercial” or “non-commercial”? How will Dunedin hospital – a long-lived capital project – be evaluated (if at all)? Does a different discount rate get used if a PPP is involved (see final item in the “commercial” column), than if the government provides the finance directly? And if so, why? And “social housing” is in the right hand column, even though housebuilding and rental operations are directly amenable to commercial models (perhaps with income subsidies to poor users). One could go on.

I asked about some of these specifics at the seminar on Monday, and got no better than handwaving answers, along the lines of “well, we don’t really know, but time and experience will tell”. It was pretty breathtaking really, but then I came home and reread the official circular and that was more or less exactly what they’d told agencies too. It was there in the text above that table, and also in this “The Treasury may publish further guidance as we gain experience with the new PSDRs.”. May…..how helpful.

Now again, to be fair, the circular notes that agencies will be required to stress test proposals by presenting evaluations done at both high and low discount rates. And there will be plenty of public sector proposals where it may not make much difference (where the costs and benefits are both substantially spread through time), but for anything with a major long-lasting capital commitment (think infrastructure) the difference will be enormous. And there is just no guidance, either to agencies, or to enable the public to have a sense of how proposals are likely to be evaluated by officials.

But in case you were thinking that surely not too much would be done at 2 per cent, there was this final guidance to agencies

That is pretty much everything central government actually does.

The whole thing is rendered even more unsatisfactory by this note at the end of the Treasury Circular

If the social cost of capital estimate is 8 per cent real – per this new guidance – it is hard to see any decent basis for keeping the capital charge rate, which incentivises agencies to use scarce capital prudently, at 5 per cent. And whatever the capital charge rate is set at – 5 or 8 per cent, or something higher still – our Minister of Finance and Treasury are happy to evaluate almost all central government department proposals at a discount rate of 2 per cent, far below our cost of capital to enable and fund such activities. I’m happy to agree that there are probably a handful of things that might appropriately be evaluated at below the cost of capital, but….they are few indeed (and probably contentious across different groups in society). And the approach Treasury and the Minister have taken just increases the risk of more uneconomic proposals being adopted over time, with more of a bias towards proposals where there are fewer solid external benchmarks. That seems less than ideal, especially in a government that touts its commitment to “turbocharging” economic growth and productivity.

(I’m also not really persuaded by the case for generally declining discount rates on all non-commercial projects, especially beginning at such a short horizon (30 years, which seems to be shorter than those other countries that adopt this approach), but it would be largely irrelevant if these projects were being evaluated at discount rates nearer the cost of capital.)

Finally, in a country where so much is subject to public consultation, what possible grounds were there for moving ahead on a change of such (potential) magnitude with no wider consultation whatever?

Willis and Rennie speaking

Last week various of the great and good of New Zealand economics and public policy trooped off to Hamilton (of all places) for the annual Waikato Economics Forum, one of the successful marketing drives of university’s Vice-Chancellor.

My interest was in the speeches delivered by the Minister of Finance and by Iain Rennie, the newly appointed (by this government) Secretary to the Treasury. The Minister also used her speech to announce the launch of a Going for Growth website complete with a 44 page document (15 of which are photos and covers, and another 9 are lists of things (being) done) titled “Going for Growth: Unlocking New Zealand’s Potential” – in the Minister’s words, “Going For Growth outlines the approach the Government is taking to turbo-charge our economy”.

Yeah right.

Now, to be clear, there are some (mostly small) useful things the government has done in the area of economic policy. There are also some (fewer in number) overtly backward steps (eg increasing effective company tax rates by eliminating tax depreciation on buildings, free liquidity insurance for big end of town property developers, debt to income limits imposed by the Reserve Bank), and some important areas where the government has so far failed to act at all (eg last year’s Budget didn’t reduce, and actually marginally increased, the estimated structural fiscal deficit). There is just nothing in what the Minister said, or in what the government has done (or has concretely indicated it will shortly do), that comes even close to being likely to “turbo charge” the economy. It isn’t even clear that either the Minister or her Treasury advisers has anything close to a compelling model and narrative about how we got into the longer-term productivity mess, let alone how we might successfully get out of it (if any politicians really cared enough to want to do so).

Take the Minister’s speech first. I read it against her speech to the same forum last February, given just a couple of months after she had taken office. In that speech we got quite a lot of good stuff about things the incoming government had quickly undone. It made a reasonably impressive list for a first couple of months. By contrast, it is thin pickings in this year’s speech.

We are told, for example, that

Leaders around the world are being compelled to act more boldly than they have for several decades

But there isn’t much sign of it – with the growth focus she talked of – in either what the government is doing, or in what is discussed in the speech.

It isn’t a long speech (just under 8 pages of text) but two full pages are devoted to supermarkets. It is the centrepiece of the speech, to an economics forum just a couple of weeks after the Prime Minister’s big push on emphasising growth-focused policies. Now, I’m as much in favour as the next person of removing regulatory restrictions that might impede the entry of new supermarket competitors – and of cutting company tax rates when possible (which bear particularly heavily on overseas investors’ calculations) – but as the focus of the Minister’s speech it seems like not much more than populist rhetoric. One could eliminate every cent of supermarket profits in New Zealand – which presumably no one wants to do, because unprofitable businesses tend not to keep operating – and it might lower grocery prices by 5 per cent of so (half that for some more realistic scenario based on claims around “excess profits”). Nice to have of course, but not exactly transformative even for households, let alone for the productivity and performance of the economy as a whole. And yet the Minister touts there as being “massive gains for Kiwi shoppers”. And as for suggestions that the government might help hold the hands of potential entrants, how about just getting the regulatory roadblocks out of the way for everyone, rather than rewarding lobbying with special treatment for those who have a taste for and knack of bending the ear of governments for favourable treatment for their particular firms?

Following on from those two pages, the Minister lists four other areas of potential policy overhauls:

  • Government procurement rules. There is talk of a review underway.  It sounds sensible enough (but nothing specific), but it is a little hard to believe that what might eventually be delivered will be any sort of game-changer
  • Tax settings.  Here the Minister tells us that “I am considering a range of proposals to make out tax settings more competitive over time”.  Which is fine, but….there is barely any mention in the speech of the fiscal constraints (the structural deficit the government has so far done nothing about), or of course of the fact that the government increased taxes on business just last year.
  • Affordable energy sounds like a good thing of course.  But there is nothing specific in the speech, and in fact there is a potentially troubling reference to potential steps “the Government may need to take to incentivise new generation”.   Other than removing regulatory roadblocks and, perhaps one day, tax imposts?
  • Savings.  Here there is disconcerting talk of changes to KiwiSaver rules, although probably in the end with marginal effects at best (or worst).  There is talk of enabling more investment in private unlisted assets, even though KiwiSaver fund managers may have little expertise in those sectors, and liquidity and valuation challenges will be very real.  There is the suggestion that more KiwiSaver balances should be invested in New Zealand, which makes little sense for individual New Zealand savers’ whose assets these are and who diversification imperatives should be driving a heavy weighting on international assets.  The Minister tells us she is looking at taking options to Cabinet, but since there is little evidence that difficulty of raising wholesale funding has been a major obstacle to growth in New Zealand it is difficult to see that whatever she comes up with is likely to make much useful change.

And so, almost half way through the government’s term, supermarket reform seems to be what the Minister is holding out as the big prospect (and of course there is Kiwibank, another much-touted cause likely to deliver little useful). 

What of the Secretary to the Treasury’s speech?  You may recall last year that it was reported on several occasions that the Minister of Finance was wanting bold, fresh, innovative thinking from whoever got the job (and since she sets out the search requirements and Cabinet makes the appointment, it really is a government appointment, one in which PSC simply acts on their behalf).

I’m fairly ambivalent about heads of Treasury giving public speeches.  On the one hand, it should be an opportunity to advertise the analytical chops of the Secretary and his/her team, and thus to be welcomed.  On the other hand, the Secretary and the Treasury are the government’s principal economic advisers and those internal relationships are much more substantively important than Treasury public speeches.  There are distinct limits –  quite severe limits in practice –  on what the Secretary can really say, since he or she can’t really be out of step with the Minister in public.  Which means it is never quite clear whether what we are hearing is their best professional analysis, or just what they more or less have to say.

I was pretty underwhelmed by Rennie’s speech, and perhaps the more so as it was I think his first on-the-record speech, and was being delivered not to a provincial Rotary club but to a significant professional economics and policy forum.  No one forced him to accept the speaking invitation, and so we might reasonably have expected the best Treasury had to offer.

Instead, we got a fairly once-over-lightly treatment of both the productivity and fiscal challenges, and the highly dubious claim –  but perhaps it went over well in the Beehive –  that “the Government already has a significant economic reforms programme underway”.   Really?  Do tell.  Interestingly, on the productivity side of things Rennie stated (of Treasury) “we are confident that we understand the basic problems”.  But there was little in the speech to suggest that they really do.  Instead, we get the same rather mechanical growth-accounting stuff that The Treasury has been trotting out for 20 years, and that has found its way into speeches by ministers too.

Thus, we are told that “New Zealand’s low capital intensity is a key driver [note the choice of words] of our poor productivity performance”.   No one disputes that business investment as a share of GDP has been low in New Zealand for a long time, more particularly when considered in the light of rapid population growth.  So the capital stock per worker is, in some mechanical sense, quite low.  But what this approach invites –  and has for the 15-20 years Treasury has been running this line –  is some of “lump of capital” fallacy, that if only more capital was thrown at the economy things would be much better.  It is also captured in comments from both the Secretary and the Minister that are reasonably read as suggesting that somehow individual firms are making bad choices and not putting enough capital into their production processes.

The mentality is all wrong.   Low levels of capital intensity are at best seen as symptom not as any sort of cause or “driver” of productivity growth failures economywide.    New Zealand has never had a particularly problem attracting finance – for example, for decades we’ve financed largish current account deficits even as on average the real exchange rate has stayed high.  And we should assume that, on average, firms and potential investors are responding rationally, and even optimally on average, to the opportunities they face.     So the issue is not that firms are failing to use enough capital in their production processes –  they are most likely doing what is best for them – but that, having regard to all the other constraints (taxes, FDI rules, RMA regimes, other bits of regulation, real exchange rates) there just aren’t that many attractive projects here in New Zealand.  A highly successful New Zealand economy would be likely to be more capital intensive (and generate higher wages),but focusing on the capital intensity or otherwise is the wrong lens with which to look at the problem.    Firms and investors respond to opportunities, and sometimes (often) governments get in the road and make investment (particularly that in the tradables sector) unattractive.

The emphasis on “capital intensity” also drives a focus –  and it is there is the Secretary’s speech –  on something labelled “savings policy”.   I suspect there is a more sophisticated analysis behind some of this stuff, but again the way it comes across is to feed a mentality that if only more “savings” were available more productivity would flow.  As already noted, we’ve had no problem attracting generic foreign savings, but government policies do make business investment proposals often rather unattractive, whether the potential finance is from domestic or foreign sources.

Rennie also addressed (or largely avoided addressing) the fiscal challenges.   “Avoided addressing” because he was more or less stuck with his Minister’s choice to go very slowly and to keep postponing the date for a return to structural fiscal balance.   Instead we get lines like “the current Government has committed to concrete steps to address structural deficits” –  which is generous at best, since they have taken few actual concrete steps, and have only “committed” to the variable vapourware of future (changeable) operating allowances – and suggestions that somehow adjusting over a long period of time is just fine, when there was never a robust economic case for the current structural deficits at all.

And then of course there was the heartwarming, somewhat detached from reality, ending

Governments need to make progress in the here and now. Our job is to advise them on
which pathways are the best to start walking down. We do think hard about a coherent
programme, drawing on evidence and judgment but also remain mindful of the uncertain
connections between policy changes and policy outcomes when you look out over the
horizon. Over time governments will choose to stride faster or slower down those paths.
The important thing is to keep taking those steps and maintain momentum across a broad
front of economic and fiscal policy frameworks.

First, it has an implicit assumption that Treasury knows what is best to do, whether around fiscal or productivity issues.  This is the same Treasury that was advising Grant Robertson only a couple of years ago that higher spending was just fine, the Treasury that seems keen on more active use of fiscal policy (notwithstanding where that mentality got us in the last few years), and the same Treasury that does not have and has not had a compelling narrative around productivity failures or solutions.  And then there is the rather delusional suggestion that, Treasury having identified the right paths, different governments might just walk them at different paces.  The real world is one in which different governments will, at times, be walking in almost exactly the opposite direction to what either fiscal prudence or better productivity performance might call for.    One might think of raising corporate taxes last year, or film and gaming subsidies, or…..or……or……. (all parties, all governments).

Perhaps it really is the case that all the answers to New Zealand’s economic woes rest with failure to adopt the old-time religion.  I rather doubt it, but whatever the case the sad reality of the Secretary’s first public speech is that there was no sign even of fresh or interesting ways of articulating the old-time religion or any interesting or bold new angles.

But that probably suited his political masters.

The Secretary to the Treasury defending govt fiscal policy

I wasn’t envisaging writing anything more for a while, but….Welllington’s weather certainly isn’t conducive to either the beach or the garden, and the Herald managed to get an interview with Iain Rennie, the new Secretary to the Treasury (not usually the sort of stuff for 27 December either).

I’ve always been rather uneasy about heads of government departments doing interviews, on anything other than operational/internal matters for which they have specific personal responsibility. When they get onto policy it is never quite clear whether they are expressing their own views or championing those of the minister, and even if the former they are inevitably somewhat constrained by the views and tolerances of the minister. The primary responsibility, after all, of heads of policy agencies is provision of free and frank policy advice to the minister.

Rennie does a bit of self-promotion, claiming that he is the sort of “change agent” the Minister of Finance has asserted that she wanted, and that he is at his best reforming things. I guess time will tell on the former claim – although count me sceptical – but his previous years in senior positions (Deputy Secretary at Treasury, State Services Commissioner) weren’t exactly known for being a reforming era, and it wasn’t obvious that he was an exception to that. And he was responsible for the appointment and reappointment of Gabs Makhlouf, who took Treasury in more of self-indulgent direction than one driving forward hardnosed and rigorous policy advice.

He claims to be keen on The Treasury being more upfront and public about its view on possible reforms. I’m not sure that’s wise – hardly likely to strengthen effectiveness with the Minister when, as is inevitable at times, those views are very much at odds with those of the government – but I guess that is their call. Lets see, for example, what they come up with in the Long-term Insights Briefing they are required to produce next year. In any case, Rennie – creature of the 80s/90s Treasury – claims to be keen on more means-testing. Views will differ of course, but it has its own problems (especially once done across multiple programmes) and the last attempt to apply it to retirement income provisions did not end well.

He also touched on tax. There is some ambiguity about that second para, but I take it that he is advocating taxing capital income at a lower rate than labour income. If so, he’d have my full support, but championing it in public is going to buy quite a fight – even with a notionally centre-right government that has just increased business taxation and shows no inclination at all to do anything about one of the highest company tax rates in the OECD.

But the real reason for this post – and the reason why I phrased the title of this post as I did – is Rennie’s apparent complacency on fiscal policy: it could have been channelling Willis. There is, we are told, no hurry to close the structural fiscal deficit

“That’s why I’ve been very clear that fiscal consolidation will need to happen over a number of years.”

We didn’t get into a structural deficit “over a number of years” (but quickly), we’ve now been running one for more than a few years, nothing done this year reduced the deficit, and on the government’s own projections any return to fiscal balance is still several years away. And this is in a country that was running surpluses less than five years ago (the first – and mostly necessary – Covid splurge was March 2020). Core Crown operational spending this year (24/25) is almost six percentage points of GDP higher than it was in the last full pre-Covid year (18/19).

Now, it is certainly true that not all reforms can be done overnight, but that doesn’t mean that fiscal adjustment couldn’t – and shouldn’t – be done a great deal faster than either Robertson or Willis have been willing to contemplate. And there is not a sign of recognition from Rennie that the date for the return to fiscal balance has been pushed out again and again – it isn’t as if successive governments are making steady progress on a well-understood and stable forward track.

There seems to much the same sort of elite resignation around productivity issues and failures. He seems willing to acknowledge that it is a significant issue, but with no sense of urgency, and no sense of just how deep-rooted the problems have become – weak productivity growth isn’t just some phenomenon of the last few years, but something that now dates back 70+ years in New Zealand, with no sustained period since when New Zealand has made any progress in closing the gaps.

Rennie’s final comments are about comparisons with 1990/91

Again, it feels more as though he is channelling his Minister, who desperately does not want to be compared with Ruth Richardson.

A fair amount of the debate around 1990/91 is more about mythology than hard facts. Reasonable people might differ about the pros and cons of welfare benefit cuts then (as they might about the ill-judged increases in real benefit rates under the last Labour government), but….

Here is total Crown primary (ie ex interest) spending in the fiscal years through that period

Government spending was not slashed and burned.

And what of that story of 15 years of failed fiscal adjustment. Here, from Treasury’s own data, is the primary balance from that era

Very considerable progress had in fact been made in the previous few years, with large primary surpluses having been achieved (nominal interest rates at the time were very high, but much of those interest rates were simply compensation for inflation, not an additional real burden). Now, it is certainly true that in the dying days of the 1984-90 government fiscal discipline weakened – primary surpluses were smaller – but there were primary surpluses throughout.

It is also true that at the end of 1990, there had been the second (and more severe) BNZ failure/bailout, unemployment was rising, and another recession was almost upon us. There were genuine fiscal surprises for the incoming government – and the ratings agencies – but the basic position, while well short of ideal, was not dire. And if net debt – at about 50 per cent of GDP – was higher than it should have been (and higher than today), it was pretty moderate by the standards of indebted OECD countries today. And, since Rennie rightly notes ageing population pressures on spending now and in the years to come, back in 1990, not only had the outgoing Labour government already put in place a plan to raise (very gradually) the eligibility age for the state pension, but the demographics going into the next 10-15 years were particularly favourable, since the birth rates 60 or so years earlier had been so temporarily low.

Instead now we have deficits well into the future, no serious evidence (yet) of a government with a willingness to make hard adjustments, and demographic pressures that are already on us and will only intensify. It is, therefore, more than a bit disconcerting to hear such complacent noises from the Secretary to the Treasury, as if to pat us all on the head and say “don’t worry, we’ll get things sorted out eventually”. No doubt it will make for holiday reading for the public that the Minister of Finance will smile favourably upon. But one can only hope that when Rennie is alone with the Minister he is rather more urgent in his advice. If not, perhaps he really is the Secretary Willis wanted…..but the only sense in which he might then be a “change agent” is in somehow acting to help accustom us to a new grim reality in which neither main party is any longer that worried about returning to fiscal balance.

Rennie’s final line was that one about there allegedly being “confidence” our “fiscal institutions” will respond and consolidate successfully. I’m not sure who has this confidence – perhaps a few members of the government party caucuses – or what foundation any such confidence might rest on. It feels more like wishful thinking, or just spin.

Where were the central agencies?

Back in early October I wrote a post “Public policy just keeps on worsening”, on the then newly-announced Residential Development Underwrite scheme, under which the government will provide free downside price/liquidity insurance to big residential property developers, for a period that was said not to be forever but with no specific time limit, and instead with confident assurances from the minister (Bishop) that the government (Cabinet) would judge when to turn this subsidy off and on. It seemed like a classic example of bad policy, playing favourites at the big end of town, offering subsidies with no rigorous analysis of any sort of market failure, handing unconstrained discretion to ministers, and so on.

All this was stated to be being done with the primary objective of “maximising overall housing supply, while minimising the risk and cost to the Crown”. On which I noted in the earlier post

You minimise the cost and risk to the Crown by simply not offering free insurance, and if you must offer such insurance you should do so with a disciplined and transparent model (to, for example, estimate the economic price of the option). But there is nothing of that sort in any of the MHUD material, just a lot of mention of the (extensive) discretion afforded to officials, of whom we may be left wondering both what their expertise is and what their incentives are. Why would we back them to make better choices than financial market participants? And as for “maximising housing supply”, there seems to be no analytical framework there either, including around incentives on developers (who will, of course, prefer free insurance and can be expected to try to game the rules). Will there be any material impact on supply, will any impact be any more than timing, and how will MHUD rigorously evaluate claims put to them by developers? Oh, and isn’t developers finding themselves with overhangs of houses and land part of the way that much lower house prices actually come about?

I ended that post this way

It is a rather sad reflection of how the quality of New Zealand policymaking has fallen. Perhaps we should be grateful that exchange rate cycles aren’t what they were – and that past governments were less prone to scheme like this – or who knows what sort of free insurance the government would be dreaming up for exporters.

Who knows what the relevant government agencies thought of this scheme. I’ve lodged OIA requests and am particularly interested in any analysis and advice from The Treasury and the Ministry for Regulation.

You might have thought an arbitrary and apparently inefficient intervention like this would be grist to the mill for that new “central agency” the Ministry for Regulation, an opportunity to show any microeconomic chops they had. Instead, like true bureaucrats, they took a full 20 working days to reply to my OIA request to tell me that the new ministry had undertaken no analysis and offered no advice related to the Residential Development Underwrite scheme.

But I suppose I should be grateful they only took 20 working days (note that the law does not automatically give agencies 20 working days: the standard is “as soon as reasonably practicable). The Treasury, by contrast, took 40 days, insisting that they needed time for “consultations”.

Their full response is here:

Treasury OIA reply re Residential Development Underwrite scheme Dec 2024

There were only five papers.  Two were from after the scheme was announced (operationalising the required ministerial delegations).  The first two aide memoires were from January and February respectively in response it appears to advice from the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development, concerned about a possible “hard landing” in the housing construction market, and picking up on discussion of underwrite schemes that had been put in place as part of the ill-fated Kiwibuild scheme.

This is from the first of those aide memoires, dated 17 January

That is a pretty astonishing paragraph. Neither here, nor anywhere else in the papers, is there any attempt to justify a claim of “market failure”, and while we can all agree that government land-use restrictions have created and exacerbated many problems in the housing and urban land market they aren’t in any meaningful sense “government failures” either, but rather choices which governments could undo if they chose. And nothing in the first two sentences provides any serious or analytical support for the third sentence, apparently supporting fresh interventions. (There is of course little doubt that government interventions can affect the level of activity in particular markets, but the question is the robustness of the case for any such interventions.) That last sentence is also perhaps a bit puzzling: isn’t a subsidy to private developers going to add to private construction activity (not crowd it out?) and how are the efficiency and value-for- money tests even plausibly met when guarantees are handed out for free?

Carrying on through the papers we find this snippet

Really? Our Treasury thinks a mitigant is that bad underwrites can simply be stuck in the bottom drawer in the hope that one day something will turn up…. And here one thought a wider goal of a housing reform process was permanently lower real house prices.

And these from the 16 February aide memoire

But there is no robust analysis anywhere, including not scintilla of analysis leading us to believe that Treasury had thought hard and robustly about why judgements of officials and ministers were likely to be better than those of private financiers, including reflecting hard on the incentives facing the two groups. Perhaps this is more of an example of ‘government failure’.

But what is perhaps more surprising still is that those notes were written in January/February, and then there is nothing released (or withheld) until the next document, which is dated 3 October. The Residential Development Underwrite scheme was announced on 4 October.

There are several things interesting about this aide memoire

  • (rather trivially) Treasury has withheld, as out of scope, more than half of the title of the aide memoire, only to release the title in full in their letter to me
  • much more substantively, the paper is dated 3 October, and is described as being for a meeting with the Minister of Housing on 7 October.   The paper goes on to note that, as far as Treasury understood things on 3 October, “the RDU will be announced before the end of October”.  It was, of course, announced the following morning.
  • and perhaps most remarkably of all, the substance of the RDU section of the aide memoire is just slightly more than one page, and is really all process oriented, and answer one detail question from the Minister of Finance about scope for changing the parameters once the RDU was in place.

In other words, assuming (as we must) that the OIA has been answered honestly, there was no Treasury advice at all on the specific development of the RDU, or any of its parameters, and the scheme itself was rushed out far more quickly than The Treasury had understood just the day before the actual announcement.

It is a poor and unnecessary policy, underpinned it appears by a poor policy process, a central planners’ mentality (government knows best how many houses should be built etc) and a cast of mind from The Treasury that seems astonishingly more sympathetic to big-end-of-town corporate welfare handouts and ministerial discretion than would have seemed even remotely plausible in the heyday of The Treasury.  And perhaps, as is the nature of so many of these sorts of interventions, many economists are suggesting that the residential building approvals cycle was already bottoming out even before ministers and bureaucrats rushed out their shiny new subsidy toy.

Fiscal and monetary policy

Over the last few years, The Treasury seems to have been toying with bidding for a more significant role for fiscal policy as a countercyclical stabilisation tool It seemed to start when Covid hubris still held sway – didn’t we do well? – and the first we saw of it in public was at a Treasury/Reserve Bank conference in mid 2021, at which both the Secretary and some of her staff were advancing thoughts of that sort (I wrote about it here). More recently, this mentality has shown up in the commissioned report from US economist Claudia Sahm (post here) and in the consultation for The Treasury’s forthcoming long-term insights briefing (post here).

Last week they issued three papers in this vein (all carrying standard disclaimers that the views presented are not necessarily those of The Treasury itself, let alone the government).

The first one (long, and I haven’t read it yet) appears to be a fuller and final version of something presented at the 2021 conference. The second, quite short, is Sahm’s report (how much did the taxpayer pay for it?). The focus of this post is the third paper.

In the interests of full disclosure, the author is a former colleague and was my first substantive boss decades ago at the Reserve Bank. We have ongoing connections through the troubled Reserve Bank superannuation scheme, where Bruce has been a dogged campaigner for the trustees (appointments of most controlled by Orr/Quigley) to do the right thing, fixing some pretty egregious historical errors, and he was for a time a trustee himself. We have spent many many hours over the decades debating issues around macro stabilisation, in the 20+ years our Reserve Bank careers overlapped and since.

It is a 40 page paper covering multiple decades and so I’m not going to try to review the entire document, but rather to pick out a few themes that struck me, including revisiting my ongoing scepticism about Treasury (or Treasury staff/consultants) bids for a new and bigger role. Doing core fiscal policy, and associated analysis, seems quite challenging enough – and if ever that was in doubt the last couple of years should have brought it back into focus. Sticking to your knitting (and doing your own core job excellently) is typically good advice for government agencies.

Particularly if you are young, or haven’t followed New Zealand macro policy developments closely, there is useful background material in Bruce’s paper. It is easy for detail and institutional context to be lost as time passes, memories fade, (and embarrassing episodes – think the Monetary Conditions Index – are quietly swept under the carpet, the place the Reserve Bank would probably now like the LSAP losses to disappear to).

But I’m inclined to think that the paper is mis-titled. On my reading of things – and I was reasonably close to macro policy from the inside for much of the period – there was very little of what could properly be described as “fiscal – monetary coordination” over the last 35 years. That was mostly by design, and in my view was (and is) mostly a good thing. There have at times been tensions, but that isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but not usually much coordination. It generally hasn’t been needed. The approach was, and is, pretty standard among countries of our sort. So the paper is more of a retrospective on the parallel developments in each of fiscal and monetary policy, with some added thoughts on whether, and if so how, there might be room for more in future.

Contrary to one claim in White’s paper, active monetary policy isn’t new. But for a long time, in those countries that had central banks (we didn’t until 1934), interest rate (and related instrument) policy adjustments were mostly about defending exchange rate pegs (Gold Standard or simply fixed exchange rate choices). In the post-war decades fiscal policy sometimes played a part in that (think of prominent episodes like the 1958 “Black Budget” or adjustments following the wool price collapse in 1966), and through those decades in New Zealand both fiscal and monetary instruments were directly in the hands of the Minister of Finance.

Floating the exchange rate (in 1985) and making the Reserve Bank operationally independent in conducting monetary policy (formalised in law from 1 February 1990) opened the way for what we call the “consensus assignment” of tasks. The Reserve Bank would focus on delivering inflation at or around target, and in the process – and particularly in the presence of demand shocks – would do something towards leaning against big swings in real economic activity. And the Bank would be accountable for its stewardship. Fiscal policy would be made as transparent as reasonably possible (so that the Reserve Bank could properly take fiscal developments into account), but that fiscal policymakers (ministers) could concentrate on doing stuff voters expect with the public purse (schools, hospitals, Police, Defence, roads or whatever) while keeping debt to tolerable and sensible levels. There were, of course, the “automatic stabilisers” (mostly, the fact that taxes are proportional or progressive, and so government revenue shares some of the gains/losses when times are particularly buoyant or subdued) but they operated in the background, not overly strongly. Any macro stabilisation dimension was an incidental nice-to-have (eg we don’t pay unemployment benefits to try to keep GDP up, but because we don’t think people should simply be left to their own devices and whatever private charity can offer when times get (perhaps very) tough).

The separation was pragmatic and practical in the world New Zealand has chosen. People will rightly point out that fiscal choices can, in the extreme, end up dominating monetary policy (hyperinflations are always political – and fiscal – phenomena), but not when government debt as a share of GDP is in the sort of ranges it has been for (say) the last 80 years in New Zealand.

And so it has largely proceeded, really since the late 1980s (ie before the changes to the Reserve Bank Act or to the Public Finance Act (or what was initially a standalone Fiscal Responsibility Act). Sometimes the stance of fiscal policy has been working in the same direction (affecting demand) as monetary policy, and sometimes in opposite directions. Sometimes those similarities or differences have been helpful, sometimes not. But there really hasn’t been much co-ordination, in the sense of the Governor and the Minister of Finance getting together and agreeing which party (which policy) would do what when.

In his paper, White often conflates “working in the same direction” and “co-ordination”. He recognises that it is his definition, but I genuinely don’t find it helpful and, if anything, I think that usage muddies the water.

For example, if there is a really big earthquake at a time when the economy is badly overheated, you’d expect the aggregate effect of the resulting fiscal choices and pressures to be adding more to demand/activity but at the same time would expect that monetary policy would be acting to dampen overall demand (in practice, squeezing out some private sector spending/activity to make room for the post-earthquake repair and rebuild spending). That is a good example of both sets of policies doing what they do best, within a policy framework recognised by both the Minister (and her Treasury advisers) and the Governor (and his MPC colleagues). There is no particular for any further coordination because both parties know how things work. You might – as always – expect that Reserve Bank and Treasury officials would be exchanging notes (understanding respective models and analytical frameworks, and ensuring the RB is well aware of the fiscal plans, including timing) but the ground rules are clear.

And if the huge earthquake happened to come when there was a great deal of slack in the economy then we might have a very stimulatory fiscal policy (all that rebuild spend) but monetary policy might still need to be expansionary (just less so than otherwise). Policies now look like they are both working in the same direction, but in fact it is exactly the same framework – no more or less coordination – with the only difference being the (macro) starting point. I was bit surprised that in his account of how fiscal and monetary policy have operated over recent decades, including following shocks, there was little no reference to output gaps (or, less technically, to the starting point, whether of excess demand or excess capacity). It really matters: in 2007/08 for example the Bank’s best estimate was that economy had been badly overheated and thus contractionary monetary was required, whatever fiscal policy was doing, while by 2010/11 (earthquakes) economywide excess capacity was again a thing. But neither earthquakes nor pandemics (or foreign financial crises/downturns for that matter) can be counted on to conveniently time themselves to the state of the NZ business cycle.

White covers what is probably the closest example of fiscal-monetary coordination over the 30+ years he looks at.

It is good for governments to be conscious of where their fiscal choices might put pressure on monetary conditions but…..as both Brash and White note…..it often isn’t a particularly robust basis for making fiscal choices. Macro forecasting is notoriously challenging.

I don’t think the exercise has been repeated in quite that way. And perhaps, for various reasons, it is better not to. One could think of this year’s tax cuts for example. The government knew that, all else equal, tax cuts would put a bit pressure on demand and inflation but actually neither they, nor their Treasury advisers, nor the Reserve Bank knew whether by the time any cuts came that would be particularly problematic or not. And to, in effect, invite the Reserve Bank to exercise a yea/nay call on whether the political promise of tax cut proceeds seems to risk undesirably politicising the Bank.

White structures his discussion of history around four sets of shocks: the Asian crisis in 1997/98, the “global financial crisis” of 2008/09, the Christchurch earthquake(s), and the Covid pandemic.

I wasn’t fully sure how helpful this was. Discretionary countercyclical fiscal policy really didn’t play a material role in either of the first two episodes. In the late 00s, fiscal policy had moved into a quite expansionary mode but that had more to do with politics (Labour’s position was slipping, and large surpluses over many years had become an appetising opportunity for the Minister of Finance’s colleagues) and a rather belated – and, it turned out, erroneous change of heart by Treasury, which advised governments that revenue had moved sustainably high – than anything designed to be deliberately countercyclical. As it happened, fiscal policy was expansionary into the recession, but that was more by chance and poor forecasting than by design. Beyond the 2008 Budget, the Crown offered guarantees (for retail deposits and new wholesale bank funding), and that was an area in which the RB and Treasury worked closely together, but the overwhelming bulk of the macro policy discretionary adjustment was monetary policy. We ended up with one of the very largest cuts in our Tpolicy rate of any advanced economy (partly because our economy had been more overheated, and inflation more troublesome, than many other advanced economies).

Treasury officials (and advisers/consultants) seem more enamoured with the earthquake and pandemic stories. I don’t think either has much to offer in favour of more coordination. The series of earthquakes from September 2010 created fiscal obligations (legal and political), for spending that needed to happen over a succession of years. At the Reserve Bank, we knew that the earthquakes (especially from February 2011 on) represented a substantial positive shock (positive in a “pressure on resources” sense; serious earthquakes are themselves not positive events) over several years. It wouldn’t have made sense for the government to have tried to hold back the repair and reconstruction effort because there was going to be pressure on whole-economy resources; rather they got on and got things done, and the Reserve Bank was left to manage economywide pressures (and all the uncertainty around them) to keep overall inflation more or less in check. As per the earlier discussion, as it happened, the output gap was negative and the unemployment rate was high at the time, so the OCR stayed pretty low. But bad earthquakes can happen in badly overheated economies too.

What of the pandemic? Officials are – probably rightly – proud of the fact that they could roll out the wage subsidy scheme so quickly. They needed to. Their political masters had decreed that we all had to stay home for weeks on end – likely time initially unknown – and thus that many people would have no way of earning an income. The wage subsidy scheme was (largely) an income replacement scheme, with a leavening of “keep existing firms together as far as possible”. The point was not to maintain GDP, or to avoid people being (in economic substance) temporarily under or unemployed (not actually working) – the sort of traditional countercyclical stabilisation goals. If anything, the goal was to shut down a lot of the economy for a while, but to ensure not too much damage (including to individual ability to feed their kids and pay their mortgage) was done in the meantime. It was probably a worthy goal (certainly a politically necessary one) but it really does not have implications for countercyclical stabilisation policy. After all, if the pandemic had struck when the economy was grossly overheated (eg the 4.5% positive output gap the Bank now estimates for late 2022) no serious person would have said “oh never mind about a wage subsidy, it is a good chance to get inflation down”. Any more than we cut off unemployment benefits at the peaks of booms. They are instruments and tools for particular purposes (eg some sense of fairness), but those purposes just aren’t primarily countercyclical macro stabilisation. We have monetary policy to do that.

The pandemic is also a good example where the “both pulling in the same direction” approach to coordination is flawed. With hindsight it is pretty clear that the best policy mix in March/April 2020 would have been a stimulatory fiscal policy (the macro effects of the measures governments needed to take to assist the populace – notably the wage subsidy) and a contractionary monetary policy (a higher OCR). Again, that wouldn’t have been a case of policy being at odds, but of the framework working – governments being free to do what the circumstances demanded (and having the balance sheet capacity to do it), while not having to worry about what if anything it might mean for inflation because the Reserve Bank had that covered. (As it is, both the Reserve Bank and The Treasury misread the macro situation and what was really warranted from monetary policy, but that doesn’t change the conclusion. But just think if the Reserve Bank had done its job better – and been raising the OCR in mid 2020 – how much pressure they might have come under from the fiscal – political – authorities, had their been a more-formally coordinated model.)

You could imagine a half-respectable case being made back in 2019. Back then, the public finances were in reasonable shape and (after far too long) inflation was also back to around target. If someone had been doing a scenario exercise around a pandemic it would have been easy to talk about fiscal policy: yes, we can do something quickly (timely), temporary and targeted. And, as noted earlier, on the narrow issue of the wage subsidy they did. But what happened to fiscal policy subsequently? It was thrown badly of course, and we now sit here in 2024 – having come thru post-Covid booms and busts still with not the slightest idea as to when the operating balance might be returned to surplus. There was a decent case for some big fiscal outlays in 2020 and 2021, but…..we are years on now, and nothing of the fiscal predicament is directly caused by Covid. But the legacy is still problematic, and the record suggests that Treasury advice was (to put it mildly) not always helpful in that regard. Officials don’t seem to have been focused on the basics – getting back to balance. As a matter of realpolitik it is simply much more difficult to change track on fiscal policy than it is on monetary policy. The Reserve Bank did badly over recent years, but by late 2022 monetary policy was on a contractionary footing and inflation has now largely been beaten. As for fiscal policy, this year’s Budget was still expansionary and no one knows when we might next see a surplus. How much riskier if we were to empower ministers and officials to use fiscal policy more routinely for countercyclical purposes (in reality, almost inevitably, much more enthusiastically to boost demand than to restrain it)? The temptation should be resisted by officials, not encouraged.

If there hasn’t been much fiscal and monetary policy coordination over the years, that doesn’t mean there haven’t been tensions between them, and between ministers and the Bank. It also doesn’t mean there haven’t been times when reasonable people have argued that a different fiscal policy might help ease some of the burden on monetary policy and monetary conditions. Decades ago, before the RB become legally operationallly independent, I ran a small policy team that wrote a monthly memo to the Minister of Finance on monetary policy and conditions: every single one of them ended with what became almost a ritual incantation that faster progress in reducing the fiscal deficit would ease pressure on monetary policy. I doubt our view ever made much difference – it was hard enough to get the deficit down just focused on fiscal issues and associated political constraints.

White notes that one of the big presenting issues over the years was the exchange rate. Intense upward pressure on the exchange rate would reawaken these issues: all else equal, a tighter fiscal stance would mean slightly lower interest rates and less pressure on the real exchange rate. It was an issue for decades, until it wasn’t. One of the little appreciated aspects of the last decade or more is how much less volatile our real exchange rate has been than it was in the period from 1985 to about 2010 (for reasons that I don’t think are that well understood by anyone).

The last such period of angst was in about 2010. After the recession the exchange rate rebounded very strongly, and there was quite a sense of “oh no, here we go again”, including among senior ministers. At about that time, then private citizen Graeme Wheeler encouraged the government to move faster on fiscal consolidation, to take pressure off the exchange rate, citing experiences from 1990/91. It came to nothing much, but did prompt me to write a paper for my colleagues on that earlier experience. After I left the Bank I OIAed that document and wrote about it here.

Over the years, there was angst on both sides of the street. Don Brash was well known (to his colleagues and others) for his hankering for “tweaky tools” – things that might ease the exchange rate pressures. After his departure, Michael Cullen became increasingly exercised about the exchange rate implication of our tightenings in the mid 00s, to the point where we and Treasury were commissioned to provide a joint report on Supplementary Stabilisation Instruments, and then a follow-up report on a scheme for a Mortgage Interest Levy (taxing mortgages to keep down the extent of OCR adjustment). I wrote about that episode in a post on Cullen’s autobiography. Very late in his term, Cullen became quite vocal – even talking of overriding the RB – and in particular was exercised by our public view that expansionary fiscal policy was exacerbating pressures on interest and exchange rates (his claim was that this could not be so since the budget was still in surplus, but it is changes in balances not the levels of them that matter for these purposes). An open clash of view culminated in a two page box in the December 2007 MPS, articulating our approach to these issues.

The established framework does rest partly on the willingness of the Reserve Bank to identify honestly fiscal pressures as they arise. A couple of decades ago The Treasury developed the fiscal impulse measure specifically for the Reserve Bank, to help provide a common framework. Over the last 18 months there have been signs of considerable slippage. I wrote last year about how the Bank had suddenly stopped referring to overall fiscal balance measures and fiscal impulse type indicators, and had switched to focusing on just one part of the overall fiscal mix, the level of real government consumption and investment spending. OIAs revealed, unsurprisingly, no serious analytical basis for such a switch, and the most likely story seemed routed in opportunism: government spending was projected to fall as a share of GDP (including from Covid peaks), which distracted attention from the fact that last year’s Budget was really quite expansionary (as the IMF pointed out in public even as the Reserve Bank refused to) and this year’s was also modestly expansionary. Those are political choices open to the politicians, and we shouldn’t expect the Reserve Bank to make a song and dance about them (whether the budget is in surplus or deficit) but we should expect some honest, balanced, and calm analysis of fiscal pressures on demand (as for any source of pressure). We aren’t getting it at present.

This has ended up being a long post and only partly focused on the White paper. My view remains pretty strongly that both the Reserve Bank and the Minister/Treasury should continue to specialise; that countercyclical macro stabilisation is best assigned to the Reserve Bank (for various reasons, notably around reversibility, but illuminated by the dubious record of the last 2-3 years), and with the Reserve Bank held to account for its performance in that role. One of the developments of the last half dozen years was the addition of a Treasury observer (formally the Secretary but usually a deputy) on the MPC, as a non- voting member. I championed such a move and welcomed the change that Grant Robertson introduced. That said, I have been struck over the years by the lack of any evidence in the record of MPC meetings that the Treasury observer or the Treasury presence has made any difference (positive or negative) whatever. Perhaps that is just about how the record is written, but perhaps not either. And yet the presence of senior Treasury officials in the MPC meetings must, at the margin, fix them with some sense of ownership for the resulting policy, and in turn impede their willingness and ability to ask hard questions of the Bank – when things turn out poorly, as they have in recent years – and to be part of supporting the Minister of Finance in holding the Bank to account.

Tantalising as it might be to Treasury officials to be more active in the countercyclical space, it isn’t a good idea. They have quite enough to do in just sticking to their knitting and doing that excellently.

Treasury says one thing in a speech but quite another in the BEFU

I picked up The Post this morning to find the lead story headlined “Recession hits homes harder than businesses”, reporting a speech given earlier this week by Treasury’s deputy secretary and chief economic adviser Dominick Stephens. There was an account of the same speech, but with some different material, on BusinessDesk a couple of days ago. Astonishingly, despite being an on-the-record address, on what are clearly high profile macroeconomic issues, including touching on monetary policy, The Treasury has not issued the text of the address, so the rest of us – not the Auckland “business crowd” who heard it live – are entirely reliant on journalists’ reporting of what the chief economic adviser to the government’s principal economic adviser (which is how Treasury likes to style itself) actually said, let alone the context within which he said it. That seems less than ideal (to say the least).

The remarks, as reported, were no better, and seem remarkably loose from a very senior Treasury official. They also seemed at odds with – if probably somewhat more accurate than – the story Treasury was telling in Budget Economic and Fiscal Update (BEFU) only two months ago. I have long defended New Zealand’s system, in which the BEFU documents and forecasts are the best professional view of The Treasury, and are not the views of the Minister of Finance. The Secretary to the Treasury has to affirm this with each EFU

On the basis of the economic and fiscal information available to it, the Treasury has used
its best professional judgement in preparing, and supplying the Minister of Finance with,
this Economic and Fiscal Update.

Ministers spin, while public servants – a fearless Treasury – is supposed to be providing the Minister and the public with an unvarnished best professional view. That isn’t always easy for public servants – who have to deal with ministers and their offices every day on multiple matters – but if they aren’t up to that standard, they shouldn’t take the jobs.

Take this from the BusinessDesk report

It seems pretty clear that Stephens is claiming that they knew there was a quite serious recession underway running into the Budget, including as context for decisions ministers were making then, and that they knew things were getting quite a bit worse.

But….here are The Treasury’s quarterly GDP forecasts (quarterly per cent changes) from the BEFU

What they actually told the public (and ministers presumably) is that they thought that there had been positive GDP growth in the March quarter and that growth would be picking up – to at least semi-respectable levels – over the rest of the year. Now, in fairness, the economic forecasts are finalised quite early (in this case 5 April), but the text of the BEFU wasn’t finalised until 23 May (well after ministers had made their decisions and just a few days before delivery on 30 May). So there was plenty of opportunity to ensure that this view – a deepening recession – made it into the text, as an update to the older numbers.

So I went and checked the text. In dozens of pages of text, the word “recession” does not appear once – whether about the past year or the period ahead – and neither do “recessionary” or “downturn”, let alone perhaps more loaded words like “slump”.

So there seem to be three choices. Either The Treasury wasn’t providing us (or ministers) with their best professional forecasts and commentary, or Stephens is now rewriting history (consciously or not) to make Treasury look more prescient than it really seems to have been, or that Stephens – the chief economic adviser – had a quite different view from his boss, the Secretary, at the time the BEFU was done. My money is on the second of those explanations….which, frankly, if true is a pretty poor show from such a senior public servant. Perhaps there is something to the third story, but if there were such differences they shouldn’t be showing up like this.

There seems to have been another interesting contrast between BEFU and the Stephens speech. The Post’s report says “Stephens also confirmed the finance minister’s position that her Budget was disinflationary despite giving Kiwis more cash through tax cuts”. That description is reported, rather than a direct quotation, but if it is accurately reported it seems at odds both with The Treasury’s own published estimates in the BEFU, in which the structural deficit actually increases a little in 24/25 over the previous year, and also somewhat at odds with these words from the BEFU itself. This is from the very first page of the BEFU Executive Summary

Treasury expected that GDP would be picking up (see chart above) partly because of the boost to private sector incomes from the tax package. All else equal, that adds to inflationary pressures (and recall those structural balance estimates). (Note that the Minister of Finance is still stonewalling, deliberately delaying the release of actual Treasury advice in this area.)

Then there was this – the big text extract readers of The Post will have seen this morning –

Really? One of the biggest recessions we’ve had? This from the same agency – principal economic adviser to the government no less – that reckoned that GDP growth would be positive all this year. (Incidentally one wonders what the Minister of Finance, her office, or PMO thought when they read this story this morning.)

From later remarks in the article it would appear that Stephens is talking about per capita GDP – which has already fallen about 4 per cent from peak – but no one, no one, is going to compare the sort of economy we are now facing with the experience in, say, the 1991 recession. The big difference isn’t just that the economy had been subdued then for years before the specific 1991 downturn, but that the unemployment rate rose from just over 4 per cent to just over 11 per cent. Last we saw, Trreasury was picking the unemployment rate will peak next year at not much over 5 per cent. Perhaps there has been a radical change of view since BEFU, but if so perhaps Treasury could lay out some numbers, in a text or document we all have access to.

Stephens’ commentary on other matters also seems very very loose. Take those comments about the “fiscal response to Covid”. He seems not to give any weight to monetary policy, which in the way our system is set up is supposed to move last to keep overall economic activity close to potential and inflation close to target. Governments can spend freely or not, and it isn’t supposed to lead to a grossly overheated economy followed by a nasty recession. And while Stephens claims that we had a “really very big boom”, it really wasn’t that big – incomes just didn’t grow that much (real gross disposable income per capita at peak was just 3 per cent above the March quarter 2020 level), and while the economy became very stretched for a time (on RB estimates the biggest output gap in decades), the peak was really very shortlived. It was as nothing compared to past booms (whether the 2000s or the mid 1980s).

Somewhat surprisingly, Stephens was also apparently – description of his comments rather than a quote – offering a Treasury view on the OCR (“The Treasury is sticking to its guns and predicting interest rates will start to fall in September because there’s still work to do on bringing down non-tradeable inflation, said Stephens”). Which seems a bit odd given that the Secretary to the Treasury is herself a non-voting member of the Monetary Policy Committee. I’m all in favour of MPC members generally offering their views and analysis in public, but even in more transparent systems overseas it is rare for MPC members to be quite that blunt about specific forthcoming OCR decisions. And if Stephens wasn’t speaking conscious of Treasury’s MPC spot, he really shouldn’t be second-guessing, or perhaps implicitly pressuring, the independent central bank MPC in public. Frankly, it all seemed a bit half-baked.

Now, and to be fair, there was one bit of his reported remarks that I really liked (as which I have heard him articulate before at a Treasury seminar)

In principle that is exactly right (in practice, there is inevitable uncertainty about just how much, how deep, and how long will prove to have been required). (Incidentally “slowdown” does appear in the BEFU, but about productivity growth and about events abroad.) There is a price to be paid when our macroeconomic policymakers stuff things up, and unfortunately that price is paid by us and not by them.

But although that “this is the recession we had to have” type of sentiment is quite right, I’m then left wondering why Stephens was muddying the water by suggesting – reported in both articles – that events in China explain our recession (expected or otherwise). They simply don’t. The rest of the world – and China is a major source of demand globally, not just re New Zealand – is just one of the many factors the Reserve Bank has to take into account in setting monetary policy. So far they have judged that this downturn is what we had to have (rightly or wrongly, but if they thought otherwise they’d already have cut the OCR). Our policymakers did it to us – and given the stuff-up in 2020/21 it had to happen – not people or countries beyond our control.

There is a suggestion (this from Matthew Hooton’s column yesterday) that ministers have joined the club of those underwhelmed by The Treasury

but you’d like to think that a Kaikohe bookkeeper would keep matters rather tidier and more disciplined that what was on display this week from Treasury and its chief economic adviser.

A Sahm-type rule for NZ? I think not.

The Treasury yesterday hosted the first in their new series of guest lectures, under the broad heading “Fiscal Policy for the Future”. In introducing the series Dominick Stephens, Treasury’s chief economist, told us that the focus would be on three sub-headings: policy dimensions around fiscal sustainability, the potential stabilising role of fiscal policy, and ideas around value for money. Which sounds fine I suppose, but it perhaps wasn’t a great example of reading the times that the first lecture was about an idea that would, when it was used, involve the Crown simply giving away a lot more money (automatically).

The guest lecturer was the left-wing (a description she embraces) American economist Claudia Sahm. Sahm was formerly an economist at the Fed and these days seems to divide her time between consulting and being chief economist for a US funds management firm.

Sahm is best known for the Sahm rule US recession indicator

She didn’t develop the indicator simply for analytical interest but (as she reminded readers in a recent Substack) with a policy proposal in mind

The idea being that when the recession indicator threshold point is met, the IRS would mail out checks automatically, to lean against the incipient downturn by boosting consumer spending. It would be, in her words, a quasi automatic stabiliser

(The “automatic stabilisers” are the extent to which government budgets vary with economic cycle without any discretionary policy changes – you can think of unemployment benefits, but typically the tax side of things is much more important. We don’t have lump sum taxes, rather governments share in the gains/losses when wage bills, spending, and profits rise/fall. Relative to a lump sum taxes benchmark, the actual way we design tax systems – proportional and, in respect of income tax, progressive – tends to dampen economic cycles a bit.)

Ever since Covid Treasury seems to have been freshly keen on a more active role for fiscal policy (Stephens indicated yesterday that they are looking at making the stabilisation role of fiscal policy the topic for their next Long-Term Insights Briefing). I’ve written previously about a conference Treasury (and the RB) hosted three years ago, before it was really appreciated what a mess Covid macro management and associated misjudgements had wrought. At that point, Treasury people from the Secretary down were very upbeat, partly as a result of misapplying the hardly-surprising “insight” that if you forced people to stay home and, in many cases, not work, income support was going to be done a lot more effectively using income support tools than via monetary policy. As if it was not ever so – we provide income support to unemployed people using direct Crown payments too, rather than simply relying on monetary policy to sort everything out in the end. They were at again yesterday. Yes, there are plenty of things governments need to directly spend money on, but when it comes to macroeconomic stabilisation it is very much still “case not made”. But in fairness to Stephens, he did emphasise that if many people are Keynesians in foxholes (nasty recessions), rather fewer of them were keen on using fiscal policy to take away the punchbowl as the party was in danger of overheating. On yesterday’s showing, Sahm among them.

Anyway, that was all by way of introduction. Treasury seems to have been paying Sahm (over a period of several months) to develop her ideas in a way that might be applicable in New Zealand. If I was inclined to wonder whether this might not have been a potential budgetary saving (US macro consulting economists probably don’t come cheap), I actually found the lecture quite useful, mostly in shifting me more firmly into the camp of regarding the quasi automatic stabiliser idea as neither very workable nor very useful in the New Zealand specific context, using New Zealand macro data, and the experience of New Zealand recessions.

Sahm started by claiming that New Zealand had worse stabilisation challenges than many other (advanced?) countries, claiming that we had “really volatile output”. I wasn’t quite sure what she was basing that claim on, and just went back and dug out the OECD series of quarterly changes in real per capita GDP over the last 30 years (the period for which the data is fairly complete across the whole membership). New Zealand doesn’t really stand out – actually the median country for the variability of quarter to quarter changes over that period. What is perhaps more notable – and relevant here – is that the United States had the second lowest standard deviation of any of the OECD countries over that period. (It is also worth bearing in mind that many international comparisons, notably the OECD, use the expenditure measure of GDP, which used to be much more volatile than it has since become – an open question as to whether that is a reflection of changing reality or just better measurement by SNZ.)

Sahm is keen on the automatic stabilisers. She claims New Zealand’s are more effective than average, although in the past I’ve seen people reach the opposite conclusion (for the good reason that we have flat rate unemployment benefits rather than income-related ones, and that our tax system is not highly progressive, and our taxes as a share of GDP are not overly high). But whatever useful impact the “automatic stabilisers” have in dampening the extremes of economic cycles, it is important to remember that those features of the tax and transfers systems were put in place on their own specific individual merits, and any macroeconomic stabilisation benefits are at best nice-to-haves. We have unemployment benefits because we think people (and their kids) shouldn’t starve. We have progressive taxes because of conceptions of fairness, and proportional rather than lump sum ones for similar reasons. We have bigger governments in some countries than in others not primarily from macroeconomic stabilisation considerations, but because of differing conceptions – fought through political processes – about the role of the state.

By contrast, what Sahm is proposing is a fiscal tool that would exist solely for macro stabilisation reasons. It really is a quite different beast. To be fair to Sahm, she argues that her tool isn’t necessarily a case of more total fiscal outlays in downturns, but different or better ones. But you get the sense that her personal politics leans in the direction of bigger government rather than smaller, and as we shall see – whatever might have been the case in her US calibrations – in New Zealand it doesn’t look as though it would have worked that way.

Her New Zealand starting point was to identify the agreed upon recessions, using the official New Zealand data.

One might quibble, but lets take that list and move on

She then trawled through the New Zealand data looking for a rule that would be timely, simple, easy to understand (and legislate), involving reliable data, and free from external influence. This is the proposed rule she came up with

You will quickly see that it is quite a lot more complex than her US rule (which has just one variable – the unemployment rate – to trigger similar sized (in aggregate) payments.

Who would be eligible? Her basic proposal was that payments (around $1000 a head [UPDATE altho I suppose larger if children were excluded; she didn’t clarify one way or the other]) should be made to the bottom 80 per cent of people by income (no doubt greatly welcomed by middle class kids doing after school jobs, their older siblings at university, and the retired). In her time working with Treasury she had, it seemed, been regaled with stories of the previous government’s “cost of living” handout, and she (fairly) noted that the advantage of pre-positioning an instrument is that you can sort out all/most of those sorts of issues in advance.

Where I started getting uneasy was with the consumption indicator (I wasn’t clear whether she was using private consumption or total but what follows is relevant either way). First, as she acknowledges, she is finding empirical regularities (data mining might be a bit unfair) not laws of nature, and it is over a sample of only five recessions, (two of which really ran into each other, one of which was very very unusual in nature). Perhaps the thing that most surprised me was that there was no sign she had done her analysis using real-time data – which is what any automatic instrument would have to be keyed off. She mentioned the point in passing, but surely between Treasury and SNZ they could have got her the real time (ie first contemporaneous release) data to check?

Those revisions matter. As just an example, on a very quick Google around the eve of the 2008/09 recession this was how the Treasury March 2008 Monthly Economic Indicators report saw the latest GDP numbers

That was production GDP, up by an estimated 1 per cent. The current official estimate for that series for that quarter is an increase of 0.13 per cent.

(In passing I would note that anything that is a legislated mechanical rule then puts a great deal onus on the processes and capability and integrity of the organisation producing the data. Their staff and management will know that a great deal may rest on one tenth of a decimal point in some circumstances. In years gone, I would probably have played that down as an issue in New Zealand, but…..SNZ has been in the headlines in the last 10 days or so for reasons that don’t fill people with confidence in their integrity or capability, and in recent decades SNZ has been run by generalist public servants from the SSC/PSC stable, not fierce statisticians. It wouldn’t be my biggest worry by any means, but….)

But much the biggest issue is that inflation line in the rule. I’ve not seen anything similar in her US proposal. The general idea is that if (core) inflation is high you really don’t want to be adding automatic stimulus to the fire (any more than discretionary bits, like the “cost of living payments”). As Dom Stephens pointed out, there is an argument the restriction isn’t tough enough even as Sahm expressed it: after all the Reserve Bank is supposed to be aiming at 2 per cent, and if inflation is above target overall macro policy is still supposed to be bearing down on inflation (although here I would note the lags, and if macro policy isn’t adjusted until inflation is all the way back to target midpoint it is almost certainly rather too late). But lets stick with Sahm’s version.

She presented this chart (Treasury sent out her presentation to attendees but hasn’t yet put it on their general website)…

…and claps herself on the back. Her fitted rule, she claims, triggers in all the recessions except the 1997/98 one (which had as much to do with drought and bad domestic monetary policy as Asia). Unfortunately, I think she has been misled by some of her data, and doesn’t have any real domestic context. As a starter, from the bottom half of her table (“technical recession”) the 1989 sharp fall in consumption was from a base quarter immediately prior to an increase in GST, so at very least you’d need to adjust the rule for such (easily observable) events.

But what about the real recessions (top half of the table)? There is some ambiguity about the 87/88 event as her table says N to automatic payments but her text seems to say yes. But either way, there is absolutely no way that macro policymakers in early 1988 would have been wanting to add fiscal stimulus (automatic or otherwise). Inflation (headline and core concepts) was coming down but was far too high (for the Bank and for ministers), and every single one of the regular Reserve Bank reports in those days called for more fiscal consolidation to ease the pressure on monetary policy and the real exchange rate. Same goes for the 1991 recession. We were still trying to drive down inflation (it was too high relative to the new official target) and fiscal policy was all in a flurry by the averted threat of a double credit rating downgrade. Aggressive fiscal consolidation was the order of the day, both for fiscal reasons (primarily) but also to ease pressure on monetary policy),

Skip over 97/98 for the moment and we come to 2008/09. The sectoral model of core inflation – probably the best retrospective indicator of core trends – was well above 3 per cent all through 2008 and into 2009, so although I’m not sure what core measure Sahm is using in the table, inflation certainly wasn’t anything like acceptable to the Bank in the early days of the recession (Sahm’s focus). It was a year of fiscal expansion……but mostly because (a) Treasury misjudged the permanence of the high levels of government revenue at the peak of the boom, and (b) it was election year and the government was losing (and presumably preferred specific own-brand giveaways to mechanised ones). Even had the rule been in place, it probably wouldn’t have triggered before final Budget decisions were being made in April and early May 2008.

As for Covid, if I was trying to design an automated rule I’d just take the Covid period out of my sample. The (discretionary) wage subsidy – which might have been too generous, but did its job – was put in place in late March 2020, months before the Q1 consumption data were available. Not only would the rule have been far too late to trigger, but in the specific circumstances it would have been too small to be relevant (swamped by the size of the wage subsidy). And, as it turned out, the last thing that was needed in 2020 was more encouragement to people to spend…..when the overall policy response helped generate the worst breakout in inflation for decades.

She calls the current episode a “technical recession”, but the unemployment rate has risen already by more than a full percentage point and per capita GDP is down as much as it was in 2008/09 (and consumer spending has been very weak). So it feels like another downturn when the rule triggered but payments would not sensibly have been made because…..inflation.

It was Dominick Stephens who pointed out recessions are sometimes the solution (to inflation) not the problem to be resisted. And I think that does mark our experience out at least somewhat from the US – notably we went into the severe 2008/09 recession with a pre-existing inflation problem, and they did not.

So, curiously, what we are left with is that I can think of only one episode in the last 37 years (the data sample) when triggering the rule and making payouts might have been helpful (and I stress “might” because she isn’t modelling responses, or comparing alternatives), and that is the one of her real recessions where payments would not in fact have been made: the 1997/98 episode. Which seems a bit awkward for the proposal.

And that is before we start on the other problems with the scheme.

For example, if one could identify a new and reliable rule – for indicating that the economy was probably in recession – why not just (a) advertise it widely, and (b) pass it on with a strong commendation to the central bank MPC. If it is a great and reliable rule (a) the Bank would be likely to use it in some form or other, and (b) the markets and the public would recognise that conditions were likely to ease, and respond accordingly. And to turn things on their heads, if there is a preloaded fiscal response, doesn’t that make it more likely that the central bank will be even slower than usual (this isn’t personal to the RB, central banks generally tend to be too late) to react, relying in part on the coming fiscal hit to buy them a bit more time to wait and see? A realistic assessment of such a policy proposal would need to make allowance for those sorts of interactions.

And then there is politics. Why would any political party or coalition want to preload lump sum handouts, rather than (a) look to the RB to do its job, and (b) keep the fiscal fuel for its own spending or tax cutting priorities (and perhaps again this is a difference to the US: here the government automatically (by construction, having supply) has a majority for its own budget plans? And why would much of the public think that big handouts to beneficiaries, high school kids, the retired etc would be a great idea at a point in the cycle where – again by construction – the unemployment rate is perhaps only a little off cyclical lows – and some of those lows (as recently) may have been quite extremely low. (This is, incidentally, one of the conceptual problems with the rule – which is just based on empirical regularities. Unemployment rates do drop below sustainable levels, well below at times. There is no good reason to think that additional policy stimulus is required just because the unemployment is finally heading back towards some sort of NAIRU.)

Monetary policy isn’t perfect. Our central bank these days is certainly anything but. But the case for looking beyond monetary policy for cyclical stabilisation just hasn’t really been made convincingly, and – particularly here in the New Zealand case – a simple automated rules looks to have been as unfit for purpose as was the idea (touted a bit in the US) of having the Fed mechanically implement a Taylor rule.

Oh, and then there was the profound asymmetry. There is nothing in this sort of rule – or even a readily conceivable alternative one – that could credibly operate on the other side of the cyclical; pulling money out of the system according to some rule. It really is easier to give money away than to take it back. Much better to keep fiscal policy doing what it does best, and leave cyclical stabilisation efforts to the central bank (a case that, admittedly, would be more compelling in New Zealand were the central bank and its key public faces not so egregiously bad, and unwilling ever to admit or learn from inevitable errors).

But, as I say, I found it useful to think hard about Sahm-type rules in the specific context of New Zealand and its experiences in recent decades.

PS. Finally, I thought I’d take a look at the US Sahm rule indicator. It isn’t yet indicating that it is time for additional stimulus (0.5 is the threshold). But then the market doesn’t think the Fed should be cutting yet either. And when it is time for taking the foot off the brake, if I were an American taxpayer contemplating huge debt and deficits, I think I’d prefer to see the Fed do the stabilisation action.

PPS Sahm did not that a tool like this might be more useful when monetary policy was constrained (ie at a lower bound). But since there are ready technical solutions to lower bound issues – that don’t cost taxpayers billions of dollars – perhaps it would be better for central banks (chivvied along by Treasurys if necessary) to final fix the lower bound issues and leave monetary policy free to do its job, imperfectly (in the nature of human institutions).

UPDATE 13/6 Thinking a little more about Sahm rule types of proposal, they seem best suited to a world in which the economy is routinely running at or around capacity and then a demand-shock recession arises out of the blue (and thus an increase, even a modest one, in the unemployment rate might reasonably indicate a case for policy stimulus). But that isn’t often the case (probably generally, but certainly not in New Zealand in recent decades). As just one example, around two thirds of OECD countries had their lowest unemployment rates in the period 1995 to 2007 in 2007 itself, often in the December quarter, the very eve of the recession getting underway,